Derek Hennecke - Kincell Bio - Part 1

Intro - 00:00:01: Welcome to the Biotech Startup Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee.

Jon - 00:00:23: My guest today is Derek Hennecke , a veteran biotech entrepreneur and board member with over 30 years of experience in the CDMO industry, whose mission is to support the biotech revolution and create value for patients, customers, and investors. In addition to his board work, Derek previously held leadership positions at DSM and was founder and CEO of Xcelience, which he eventually sold to Capsugel Lonza in 2016. Xcelience was a Florida-based CDMO that specialized in pre-formulation, micronization, analytical services, formulation development, cGMP manufacturing, small-scale commercial manufacturing, and global clinical supplies packaging and logistics. His extensive expertise in pharma and cell therapy makes for an insightful conversation that founders can learn from. Over the next four episodes, we cover a wide range of topics, including Derek's upbringing in Germany, his undergraduate studies at the University of Alberta, his initial foray into BD, his rare experience managing operations in both Mexico and Egypt, what it was like buying out a business and founding Xcelience. And his transition into investing and work as a board member. Today, we'll chat about Derek's childhood and his early interest in history and science. We'll also touch on his academic journey in microbiology at the University of Alberta, where he shifted from chemistry to biology and his eventual move into sales. Lastly, we'll discuss his MBA experience in the Netherlands and his current outlook on the degree. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of the Biotech Startups Podcast. Derek, thanks again for coming to the podcast. So good to see you again.

Derek - 00:01:47: Good to see you again too, Jon.

Jon - 00:01:49: So as we were doing our homework and research on where to start this conversation, and obviously very impressed with the experiences you have. And I think a lot of the listeners could really benefit from learning vicariously from your lived experiences and, you know, really honestly, how you came to business and science. So we like to turn the hands all the way back. Can you tell us a little bit about your early upbringing and how it influenced your leadership style and business philosophy?

Derek - 00:02:21: Thank you very much, Jon. It's a long time ago, but I was born in Germany to Canadian parents. My father was in the armed forces. So we moved around every four years. And that meant that you're getting new friends every four years. And you have to learn quickly to introduce yourself, try to find who are the good kids, who are the bad kids, who you'd like to hang out with. And so I think that is one thing that helped me move more to the business side is to try to figure out who you want to do work with for the rest of your life. Life is short. You don't have to work with jerks. And I think that's what helped in my upbringing.

Jon - 00:02:56: And that's always like, for me, it's very like, for context, I grew up in I was born in Berkeley, went to through the Berkeley Unified School District, and then ended up doing my studies and research at Berkeley and moved to San Francisco now. So when I hear stories of folks who are moving around, I'm always like, did I do this wrong? Like, did I? My running joke is that I've, you know, I've lived in a seven mile radius, and perhaps I leave, I should leave the seven mile radius. And so, you know, as you're moving around. And you're basically having to uproot and figure out your friend circles and kind of what it means to kind of create your immediate friend group. Can you talk a little bit about the one, what was hard about that? And two, the kind of, you said life is short, working with jerks, there's no time for that. Can you talk about how you adapted that? Because I can't imagine it was an easy thing to do as an adolescent.

Derek - 00:03:56: No, it's not. And you make a lot of mistakes as well, because there's a pecking order in every neighborhood. And so, you know, one time it was also like, well, just pick out the biggest kid in the block and get into a fight. However you end up, you end up usually low down because there's always a, it's a big neighborhood. And, and that's, that's tough a little bit to do that. But also you have poor judgment sometimes and you make the wrong choices as well. So luckily you get to reset. The nice thing is that you get to reset that in three and a half years and try again. So I guess that's the upside of it.

Jon - 00:04:27: Yeah. That honestly sounds like business really. Is it? It's like,

Derek - 00:04:31: yeah, at least in the States and Canada it is in Europe. It's very difficult to be entrepreneurial. It's getting better, but we're lucky here in the United States and Canada, where you're allowed to reset and you're allowed to have failures and take risks. And if you have, you know, a sidestep that at least you'd be able to do to come back, it's a little bit harder in other countries.

Jon - 00:04:50: Yeah, totally. And I think that's something special that I kind of reflect on too, is that cultural element. It feels a little bit kind of wishy-washy soft, kind of like it's not as quantitative, but it is like an underpinning fabric of like kind of the entrepreneurship culture and energy and kind of zeitgeist that, you know, I think it's critically important.

Derek - 00:05:12: It's also great because in the States and Canada, but mostly the United States, there's a service provider for everything. You know, like your business, you know, that there's somebody who is very specific in what you do and have a niche. And it's harder to find in other countries. Another example is here when you start up a business, you're in science, you're dealing with that, but you don't know much about HR. You don't know about unemployment insurance and benefits. There are a lot of service providers that can help out and you get in with one and they are dedicated on that. And so that's another benefit of starting up a business here in the United States.

Jon - 00:05:46: Absolutely. And as you're growing up, and you know, you were going through your early academic career, did you know, like early on that you would eventually get into science? Or was this something that kind of coalesced as you know, kind of you're living through experiences, and there's like a later spark for science?

Derek - 00:06:05: I had interest in history, living in different countries and the motivations of people. But I was always interested in science, especially the chemistry side. What I realized early on, even early on, that chemistry was getting to a maturity phase and biology was going to be the next thing. So I moved over from chemistry to more biology. Physics was a tougher field, certainly the amount of math involved in that. But chemistry, biology, right from an early age and right through junior high and high school, took all the courses and interest in that area.

Jon - 00:06:34: Was that something that was fostered by your parents or something that came from kind of within for you?

Derek - 00:06:39: I think they were really open and helping, buying me a 1980s chemistry kit with all the dangerous chemicals and things and leaving me in the basement. I was Gen X, so they didn't care what I was doing in the basement.

Jon - 00:06:50: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get in trouble. You got it. 

Derek - 00:06:53: I don't think it works very well for a Gen Z anymore. But yeah, that was helpful. And I think I went to my mother's university anatomy museum a couple of times and was fascinated about that and probably a creepy 12-year-old point of view. But I think it maybe came from just a curiosity of what was going on in the world and how we could improve things.

Jon - 00:07:14: Very cool. So as you are approaching your undergraduate studies, can you talk a little bit about studying microbiology at the University of Alberta?

Derek - 00:07:24: Yeah, it was another time. And back then, before the internet, there were really only two or three different career paths that somebody could take. You know, when you're in high school, there wasn't any guidance counseling. And it was either, you know, doctor, lawyer, or accountant as choices. So everybody went into those three areas very quickly. Even back then, I was screened out of medicine and looked around what else was possible. And again, the choices became very few. You could do zoology or botany. Genetics, which was mostly fruit flies. And I had an aversion to the ether and passing out, becoming dizzy from that. Genetics was all fruit flies back then. And something called microbiology, which was more like the liberal arts of science, liberal arts of biology. You could do anything in that area. And so it was fascinating. And you could explore the beginning parts of molecular biology and develop the curriculum that you wanted. So there wasn't a choice.

Jon - 00:08:15: Yeah, yeah. And at that time, did you have a undergraduate lab experience?

Derek - 00:08:21: I did. That was a pretty good program at the University of Alberta that they would team you up for the summer programs and work in the laboratories. So already by the second year, you were encouraged, if you wanted to go into academia, to start hanging out with the professors and the postdocs to understand what you were like. It was kind of like a pre-job interview in many ways. So I did two summers in laboratories.

Jon - 00:08:44: For me, when I think back on my wet lab experience, I felt like I stumbled into the lab.

Derek - 00:08:53: Really? How's that? How'd you stumble?

Jon - 00:08:54: Yes. So it was exactly the same way. I kind of got weeded out of the medical pre-med track.

Derek - 00:09:01: I don't feel so bad.

Jon - 00:09:02: Yeah, yeah. And also, yeah, exactly. You're not alone. And probably it's like, you know, and definitely respect those who were able to do it. But I was just not built for the amount of kind of like cramming that was, you know, the prerequisite for it. And so as I was talking to my colleagues, I was like, what else is there that I can do? I want to stay in science, but like what else is there I can do? And a friend of mine, Yuki, just said, come to the lab. It's like, come check it out. I was like, what is this? Like, I don't even understand. And this is not a formal program. It just happened to have someone in a lab. Got ahold, they taught me how to pipette, get under the hood. I was like, oh, this is very different. This like, I thought always science was kind of the thing where you're opening up the textbook and just like getting everything you know, downloaded but it almost exactly, what you said it was almost, a brave new world where in the lab you can kind of, explore and not have too much honestly guard rails, like it's just kind of exploratory so that's how i stumbled into it.

Derek - 00:10:02: It's great. Did you enjoy your time there? Was that enjoyable?

Jon - 00:10:05: It was enjoyable. But then it's kind of, this is the origin story for Excedr in that I was like, okay, I got this pipetting thing down, but I see across the hall that there's a liquid handler. They have the robot. And I was like, can we get the robot in here? And... Lo and behold, robots are not cheap. And so I realized that I love wet lab research, but I think... I was probably could play a better support role for those who are in the lab who are way smarter than me. And so like, I was like, okay, I want to stay in science and play a role, but perhaps not like the rock star in the lab. So that's how I stumbled into it. But thinking about like the kind of schools who set up these programs and opportunities for students to get this wet lab research is incredible because for me, it was just happenstance. And I think we need more and more people, you know, doing this research and having it just be a kind of a lightning in the bottle moment is not really something that's scalable.

Derek - 00:11:13: No, that's pretty cool. For me, I realized I was pretty clumsy in the laboratory. My professor, the main professor I had in the second year, we didn't have much money. He was in soil microbiology, and there wasn't much funding before it. So we didn't have Eppendorf tips, or certainly didn't have a robot either. We had to use mouth micropipetting, with a tube and little glass. I don't even know if they exist anymore. It's incredibly occupational therapist bad.

Jon - 00:11:42: Yeah, that was the same experience as us. We were really trying to make our budget go the distance. And so it's the exact same way. We're just like, these tips are super expensive. And so we need to make these go the distance. And if you miss pipetted, and you had to throw up, you need to throw them out. If they saw you, they're like, did you just throw out fresh tips?

Derek - 00:12:08: Really? They would have complained about tips?

Jon - 00:12:10: Well, not like, say, they wouldn't reprimand you, but they're like, how did you mess this up? Those are valuable tips. They're not cheap. You better get it right the next time, because this is expensive. And that's one thing I learned, too, is that each lab on campus, too, has a very different resource profile. And I was like, oh, this is like, when thinking about Berkeley, you're like, yeah, every lab is rich. Rich. Yeah. Not the case. Like, not the case at all. It's very different from lab to lab. And we did rotations in a lab that was like super well funded in a lab that's like a little bit less funded. And so I saw like quickly, I was like, oh. Like, this is what it could be, how good it could be. And like, you know, we're cousin rich cousin. Yeah. And I remember just like, you know, they'd order something from a bunch of consumable sets. Put them in the freezer and then like for like $40,000, like come back later. And you're just like, Oh, we forgot about those. I was like, What? Yeah, how did you forget about this? But it was a very interesting experience. And I think, but very formative, like, absolutely very formative. And you're talking a little bit about your, you know, your PI and your laboratory, you know, can you talk a little bit about that PI that took you under their wing, or maybe multiple PI that took you under their wing while at the university? 

Derek - 00:13:36: Yeah, I think they were really, really understanding. I think they never had a bad one in the lab. I think they realized that they were getting undergraduate cheap labor.

Jon - 00:13:44: Yeah.

Derek - 00:13:45: And then doing it as sort of a screening to see who could, you know, and maybe it was supply and demand, but it was also if they were a good professor, then they're more likely that you would want to work for them or do your PhD with them. So I think it was pretty friendly. And when I broke the mouth of my cro-pipettes and blew the guy's budget, blew my PI's budget, he didn't walk me out of the laboratory or put me in a corner. He just shook his head. He was a big German guy and just shook his head and walked away. They were all great. I think everybody worked well together. I don't have any bad stories about that. Of course, some people didn't get funding and there was my first exposure to downsizing or people being let go because funding didn't get extended. It was at a time when all the money for research in Alberta was coming from the oil industry. So there was good influx of money coming in at that time. So maybe that helped with the high spirits.

Jon - 00:14:41: Yeah, totally. It's crazy hearing that. Your lab experience is kind of similar to mine, honestly. I wasn't hitting grand slams, but it was definitely, I had moments where they were just like... Like shaking their head. And so after, you know, you're wrapping up your time, and you now have finished studying microbiology. Did you know what was next for you? Did you ever have these? Aspirations to, you know, become an academic or, you know, what was next for you?

Derek - 00:15:11: Well, definitely it was the PhD path. I had made a couple of inquiries into industrial microbiology. But back then it was coming into a recession as well, 89, 90. So there weren't very many jobs available. So I was going to continue my PhD. And I looked at different programs. But University of Alberta seemed like a good place to continue. And I remember my girlfriend at the time, she said, well, why don't you get a job instead? And she pulled out a want ad for Berger Mannheim looking for a sales rep. And I said, okay, sure, I'll go. So I went there and I didn't wear a suit. I went there with a sweater because, you know, being academic. And my future boss says, look, I think you've got a place, but you're going to have to get a suit. For your next interview, wear a suit.

Jon - 00:15:55: That's so funny.

Derek - 00:15:56: Thanks, Dad.

Jon - 00:15:58: It's so funny hearing that because I had the same experience. I was going to job fairs in exactly, just ragtag. I didn't know. And the suit that I actually got was just super ill-fitting. It was just hanging off of me. And my shoes were a little bit too big. So I was just like stumbling. I probably looked better in the sweater. I was like, this doesn't actually help anything. It doesn't give me any credibility. And so once you're there or now you have your suit, you have your interview, can you talk a little bit about, it was a sales opportunity. Can you talk a little bit about going from academia into sales at a large organization? Because I can imagine that might, have been culture shock. Or perhaps you stuck the landing and it was like, this is it.

Derek - 00:16:49: Well, definitely, I think the biggest lesson from that was pick a territory or a job where it's, you know, Blue Ocean. I mean, there's a book out there called Blue Ocean and try to find something that is open and people haven't done before. There was a brand new territory. Nobody had covered that area before. So I was going from zero to 60 and just stumbling along. Also, I was very far away from the headquarters. So the headquarters was in Montreal and then the German headquarters was in Mannheim. So it was it was pretty easy to make mistakes without having somebody look over your shoulder all the time. But, yeah, you certainly have problems setting priorities. You think, you know, this science is really interesting. I'm going to spend all my time with this researcher. And then in the end, he buys $100 worth of enzymes. That's not very impressive. And I think the bosses were very careful about that. They said, well, that was really interesting. But, you know, don't you think you should spend your time selling Tris buffer?

Jon - 00:17:42: Yeah.

Derek - 00:17:43: You know, quantities over here instead of selling this antibody or this enzyme over here. And that's obvious. Right. People get that. But it's hard for an academic sometimes to make that transition. It is all about the money and trying to develop systems to figure out, you know, how do you put your time? Your time is limited. Your time is a valuable resource. And then the other thing on the sales part was also understanding the sales process. Really think down and says, you know, how do I get the leads? How do I qualify the leads? What are the steps along the way? Further qualification. What are buying? Buying signals? And when do I ask for the sale? And then how do I sell French fries to that customer to increase the use of, you know, percentage of his wallet that you're working with? And having things in all those fields, good communication back to the head office. And here's what I'm doing. Here's where my plan is. What do you think? Being very humble and asking a lot of questions for that. So anything you do, especially it's all about productivity. Very simple stuff. But I think in academia, it's more. You know, what is a really good idea that you can put a lot of time into? And you don't have that time in the business side.

Jon - 00:18:50: So what you just described and I've early days, I used to do a lot of sales. I mean, I still do a lot of selling now, but I think sometimes when I was first getting into it, sales always felt like, ah, like you just, you know, you go in, you got to be, you know, the extrovert and just immediately just like, and honestly you can win at sales by being an introvert. I'm more introverted than I might put out, but, and it's actually quite what you just described with like that sales motion. It's actually quite quantitative. There's obviously some qualitative elements to it, but it is quite analytical in nature. So what you described is, you know, I'm going to imagine, is it something that they thought to you or did you just learn it on the fly?

Derek - 00:19:32: I think you learn it on the fly. Maybe it's better now. Again, that was a long time ago, but there was no sales training then was all zig-zigler. How to trick your customer into buying. And that's definitely, we're much more sophisticated now and that does not fly. So I think what I'm saying about the sales process, the analytical part and the introversion versus extroversion that you bring up, John, is the best now what I took from that. But back then it was all, I remember one training technique that was encouraged back then was the puppy dog close. Basically, when you go to an animal shelter or a pet shop, they say, well, if you like the dog, why don't you take him home for the weekend? And if you don't like the dog, you can bring him back on Monday. And nobody brings back the dog on a Monday because he's not a dog. And so we were encouraged to lend kits or lend new techniques out to the research lab and then follow up afterwards, which is very manipulative. It's extremely manipulative. It doesn't really solve the problem, but yeah.

Jon - 00:20:31: Yeah. It's funny hearing that strategy because. This is not just a personal story. That's how we adopted our dog.

Derek - 00:20:40: Happy with the dog at least, yes.

Jon - 00:20:42: Happy Sandy is great but they my wife and i were just like oh yeah we're just gonna do a, a foster oh no we're like we we can't give her back like.

Derek - 00:20:56: Monsters are you?

Jon - 00:20:58: Yeah, yeah. We went to the shelter we're just like oh my god no way we can't do it it worked it worked we're happy we're very happy but you know i didn't realize that that was the kind of MO for training back then but with that kind of what you described in terms of like qualifying and things like that i think it's like something that i take away from you know sales just like finding alignment and just making sure everyone is a winner in the ultimate situation and like getting value on every side and also people are just happy with the decision versus kind of what you're describing just like getting guilted or kind of like tricked into.

Derek - 00:21:33: I want to come back to your introversion versus extroversion. And certainly you have to be not afraid to go put yourself out there. That's the one part where you're going to get a lot of rejection and people are going to say, no, it's not personal. But an introvert will be much more successful in sales than an extrovert because they're listening, right? It's reflecting and letting the other person talk more than you're talking. And then the more that they talk, the more. You know, you understand about their situation and understand how you might be able to help with your services. So 100%, every good salesperson was an introvert and listener, good leader too.

Jon - 00:22:08: And, you know, that's what I learned too, is just like, you have two ears, one mouth, just listen and kind of understand the needs and the pain points. And ultimately, if you can do that, you're setting yourself up for success. So now, you know, it sounds like you were able to figure out the sales motion and, you know, your sales role. When did you know it was time to leave that sales role and move on to your next opportunity?

Derek - 00:22:36: Yeah, I think it was, I've been, you know, salesman of the year every year. And so there was a sense of accomplishment and achievement. But Western Canada was out in the hinterlands. In order to do anything more, you would have to move back to Toronto or to Montreal. So there was going to be a move. Nevertheless, in our future, I just recently been married, my new bride. So my wife, by the way. So she was earning more than me. And nevertheless, she said, yeah, let's do something else. What else could we do? And so we looked at options and I thought it was time for me to go and do a master's in Europe. And she was very supportive of it. And we both quit our jobs and moved to the Netherlands. But it was really an understanding that done everything I could in the territory. And probably maybe the future was not going to be as great as the past. So it was understanding that this was an inflection point that it was time to move on to something new.

Jon - 00:23:29: And shout out to your wife for.

Derek - 00:23:31: Yeah.

Jon - 00:23:32: Yeah. Let's just move to the Netherlands. And, you know, I always think back on. My wife, Chloe, and how supportive, especially with the entrepreneurial journey at Excedr. We would not be here right now if it weren't for her and the support. And it's critically important, again, having moved to a different country. So this is even, you know, jobs, completely different region. Can you talk a little bit about moving to the Netherlands? And also, how was business school over there?

Derek - 00:23:59: Yeah, well, definitely a major theme for this interview is the support that a partner brings to you. Your wife or your husband is really important. Maybe that's advice to give to a 21-year-old. Anybody who's listening on this is find a great partner. Most important is somebody that you can interact with and ask for advice, test things out on. Many times, come back from work and say, you know, I really want to fire that guy, or I really think that person is a problem. And then having that sounding board that you completely trust. There's nobody who's closer to you than your partner. And every key decision I've made in my life has always been with the involvement of Marcy, my wife, and being able to go through that with her. But moving to the Netherlands was interesting. The Netherlands is the most open to foreigners of Europe. And that was definitely a reason for us choosing the Netherlands to go there. Plus, the program was pretty good. But we underestimated how hard it would be for Marcy to get a job there. And the adjustment, we thought, well, you know, when you're 20, you can do anything, right? You can do anything. So. That was a challenge. We arrived and all of our suitcases were lost, except for a monitor, a PC monitor, which we were told, because, PCs were $2,000 in the States, and they were like $7,000 to $8,000 in Europe. So we arrived in Amsterdam, airport, Schiphol. The only thing that's arrived is a monitor and we have to go look for a hotel. But it was great. The program was wonderful. I think that at that time, the program really marketed itself to bring in really good students and have them interact. So the best part was the interaction of the students. And then the professors came along with it. But the MBA program was really about the people that it brought together.

Jon - 00:25:34: Very cool. And what a start to lose all your luggage. What a start. What a start. And something you said that stood out to me is, you know, the kind of in your early 20s, it's just like. And nothing feels impossible. But there's also, I think, kind of a superpower to that. And I think the longer we do business, you start thinking about all the reasons why things can go wrong, because you've probably seen it go wrong before. 

Derek - 00:26:01: Yeah.

Jon - 00:26:04: And that's something I always try to tap into as best as possible and try to kind of, you know, encourage the team, our broader team to think about what can go right. Because there's an infinite ways you can think how things can go wrong. And you can get paralysis. Because I would imagine before moving to the Netherlands, if you had just kind of done the calculations on how things can go wrong, you might not be in the Netherlands or, you know, have that opportunity.

Derek - 00:26:32: And it's also about the times, right? I think with the internet and social media, we can be able to find the long tail of where things can go wrong. And we don't take averages or chances of success. We see all the bad things. And that reflects also in the generation, you know, the Gen X and early millennials are able to maybe see where things go right. And then the younger people who are now in their 20s really can see a lot of bad stuff. And it isn't, you know, a great world out there, but it potentially is the exposure that we have to all the bad stories that limits people's chance of success.

Jon - 00:27:05: Absolutely. And I look back on it and some of the, you know. In hindsight, you're like, holy crap, did you really roll the dice on that? Whatever that project? And, of course, now it's like, oh, like, man, if I knew what I knew now, I probably wouldn't have done it. Or I wouldn't probably started Excedr. But I definitely just, like, think about how you kind of need that mentality going in and keeping that open mind. Or else you're only going to have very, very, you know. Kind of like linear progress. And if you're looking to hit kind of like home runs, you kind of need to put on a little bit more of that risk. And so now you're in the Netherlands, you know, you're situated in your MBA program. Can you talk about, did you know what's next after you finished your MBA?

Derek - 00:27:51: And I want to talk about the MBA a little bit. Back then, it was really important. It was rare to get an MBA. Now, I think it's much more common. So I would not recommend an entrepreneur to get an MBA. I think that now it's another degree. It doesn't really add credibility to banks unless you're going into consulting or into private equity, finance, something maybe that's still important. But I don't know. Did you get an MBA, Jon?

Jon - 00:28:12: I did not.

Derek - 00:28:14: You would not get one now?

Jon - 00:28:16: No, probably not.

Derek - 00:28:17: So I think that's the other advice is that I think if you need to change countries or change industries, that can give you a time out to be able to do some extra networking. And that's what I used the MBA for was to move into a new country. I was really still in the science sales side, and I needed to really branch into more business. And the MBA allowed me to do that. Maybe that's still a function that that can do here, but only if you have a really specific goal for the MBA.

Jon - 00:28:42: A lot of the business lessons that I take with me today are just school of hard knocks. And there's nothing better teacher than experience. However, like with the MBA, I think you're exactly right for specific industries and verticals and firms that definitely kind of a prerequisite. But also exactly what you said. It's kind of like that. If you're going to somewhere new. Like it's a good way to kind of just like level set. And it doesn't mean it will guarantee, you know, the success of your whatever you in a role, but definitely when you're going in cold into a new region or perhaps this new industry, it kind of just at least gets you to the starting line. But different experience for me, you know, with the entrepreneurship route.

Derek - 00:29:33: Yeah, no, I think it's a really good bullet point from this interview is don't do an MBA. There's some courses maybe you could take, you know, rush up on the finance maybe or negotiating skills that could help. But the rest of the program is really about networking. 

Outro - 00:29:49: That's all for this episode of the Biotech Startups podcast. We hope you enjoyed our discussion with Derek Hennecke. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a review and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening. And we look forward to having you join us again for part two of our conversation with Derek. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for the Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.

‍