Michael Paliotti: Navigating a Winding Path to Biotech Success (Part 1/4)

Intro - 00:00:01: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee.  

Jon Chee - 00:00:23: My guest today is Michael Paliotti, Regional sales Director at MilliporeSigma. Part of Germany's Merck Group, MilliporeSigma is a global leader in life science tools, providing cutting-edge products, services, and expertise that support breakthroughs in drug development and manufacturing, diagnostics, and scientific research. Michael is a seasoned sales professional and empathetic leader who has led collaborative and high-performing sales teams for over 16 years at MilliporeSigma. As a Regional sales Director, he has effectively coached team members in digital sales strategies, consultative selling, territory strategy development, and sales data analysis. Leveraging his scientific expertise and business acumen, he has built strong relationships with key opinion leaders, core facilities, and decision makers across pharma, biotech, and academia. Prior to MilliporeSigma, Michael held senior research positions at Cellomics, Genoptix, and the Genomics Institute of the Novartis Research Foundation. Drawing on his decade of experience in lab management, operations, and administration, Michael intimately understands the challenges facing biotech startups and research institutions and offers insights that listeners won't want to miss. Over the next four episodes, Michael takes us through his journey from bench scientist to sales leader. We discuss his transition from the lab to the commercial side of life science, the lessons he learned from working with academia, large pharma, and emerging startups, and how he developed a relationship-driven approach to sales and empathetic leadership. Michael also shares insights on building trust with customers, adapting to different market segments, and the long-term impact of investing in people. He reflects on his transition into leadership, the challenges of managing a team, and the importance of mentorship in shaping both individual careers and business success. Along the way, we explore his unexpected journey into the world of winemaking and the parallels between building a business and making great wine. Today, we're diving into Michael's early days. Michael shares how growing up in a science-driven environment influenced his trajectory, from his father's chemistry background at Kodak to his own experiences in academia and research. We explore his time at the university of Notre Dame, his unexpected pivot from optometry school, and the hands-on lab training that set the foundation of his career. Michael also opens up about navigating career uncertainty, the role of mentorship in creating opportunities, and his early for reign to the biotech industry. Without further ado, let's dive into this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. Michael, so good to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:02:34: Yeah, no, always a pleasure, Jon. Always great to see you, chat with you. When I'm up in the Bay, it's always nice to see your face at some of the events that we're at.

Jon Chee - 00:02:42: Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully when the Nucleate Summit comes up, we'll be on another beautiful, scenic summit retreat. I know I'm always looking forward to that. But, you know, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. And we always love to go all the way back in time to really, you know, unpack and just really learn about kind of what influenced your business philosophy, what kind of influenced your leadership style, and frankly, also, what got you into science in the first place. And so if we were to just turn back the hands, you know, and all the way back to growing up, tell us a little bit about your upbringing and kind of what was your adolescence like? 

Michael Paliotti - 00:03:18: I mean, I hate to say, you know, it was a typical adolescence, you know, middle class family, whatnot. So, you know, it wasn't anything that was extreme one direction or the other. Academics was always important in my household. And, you know, I kind of really took that to heart. And, you know, it was just important to me as well. It's kind of funny. I look at both my kids now and, you know, my daughters are very similar to me. And, you know, it's like I know what I want to do when I want to get there. And like, all right, didn't have to ever worry about her. And my son, you know, last night I get a text from the school. Oh, your son was late again. You know, these things, you know, you know, upbringing, some of it genetics to some of it. But, you know, and honestly, it was the same thing with my brother and myself. You know, I mean, he turned out fine as well, but, you know, he wasn't the most diligent at that time. But it was important in, you know, getting to the science part, too. My dad was a organic chemist. And so I grew up in Rochester, New York. And if people are not familiar with Rochester, that's where Kodak, if you're familiar with Kodak anymore, was located. And so he had worked there for the long time. He was actually a synthetic chemist. I honestly don't know what he did there. All I know is when we went to pick up dad at work, there was Burger King across the street. And I get to get a Whopper. So I'm like, hey, that's far. But I mean, because he was in chemistry and science, I mean, I think I kind of transitioned and just kind of got that, you know, that taste of what I potentially wanted to do. You know, the lab work, all that type of stuff. And I think it goes back. He told me how he first got into it. You know, he had gotten a chemistry set, which I was actually just looking at Amazon. I wasn't sure if we still had those with all the types of chemicals. Can you ship that? He had gotten a chemistry set and basically, you know, blew up his kitchen. And much to my, you know, my I can't even imagine how my grandmother must have reacted. So I'm like, oh, that's cool. I mean, some rooms. Right. So, you know, some of the progression of events that kind of got me at least into the science side, the chemistry, you know, biochemistry and, of course, biology. 

Jon Chee - 00:05:14: Very cool. In the household was like science and kind of chemistry, always like kind of like dinner table conversation. Or was it kind of just like, hey, like if you're interested in it, I'd love to indulge you.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:05:26: Yeah, no, I think it was, you know, we kind of always talked about it. It just kind of seemed to be a common theme. And, you know, it was one of those things like I was always interested in, you know, you know, what are you doing every day or, you know, what, you know, what is chemistry or what, you know, how does it apply to Kodak? 

Jon Chee - 00:05:40: Yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:05:41: And I thought it was always kind of neat, too, because at the time, you know, this is really dating ourselves when they had a real film, you know, there were silver halide films and like, you know, you don't you're doing silver. That's cool. You know. 

Jon Chee - 00:05:51: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:05:52: He explain to me, you know, the different, you know, how it would work and, you know, how I was so expensive to do this and all these other things. And I thought it was really cool, too, because Kodak, when they were at their high point, I mean, they were on one of the 30 on the Dow, right? I mean, now they're just, you know, flown into oblivion. And the whole Kodak Park was basically a city within a city. I mean, they had their own buses, you know, everything. I mean, it was huge. I mean, they were a big company. And so, you know, going to work a few times with them, it was really an experience. And it's actually a shame to fall from the fall from grace that they that they had. And, you know, it's their own fault. They didn't kind of see the digital revolution coming. But, you know, that's the way these things evolve. So, you know, I got that that experience, that experience, too. And really, honestly, almost everybody that lived where I was in Rochester worked at one of three places was either Kodak, Xerox or Bausch and Lomb which is crazy that those three companies were headquartered in the small same area. Yeah, same area, small city comparatively. So, you know, so it was kind of always that it was kind of a science atmosphere, you know, in the whole the whole geography. 

Jon Chee - 00:06:59: Very cool. I have family now, one of my parents, they kind of live close to Hercules. And that town is primarily Bio-Rad. Yeah, it's like primarily Bio-Rad. So like whenever I go visit them, it's always just like, yeah, everyone is just like it kind of like science, like scientists at Bio-Rad. So I can kind of see. How that like being in that environment could be conducive to the scientific path. But it's funny, you're talking about how your children kind of have different styles or when it comes to like academic academia and engaging with academia. I feel like I was probably more like your brother. We're just like. I was more like your brother. I was just like, yeah, we'll figure it out. Like, we'll just figure it out. And I don't think I learned to be more rigorous until way later, way later, and had that kind of like come to Jesus moment where I was just like. Oh my God, if I don't start taking this seriously, I'm just going to be left behind. And like, Berkeley will tend to do that to you. They're like, I'm not going to really help you. Like, if you don't, if you don't want to do it, like, that's fine. Like, and so I was like, okay, I need to do something about this, but I digress. So. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:08:12: Well, that gives me faith too, because, you know, you know, you turned out obviously fine. My brother's okay. I mean, he's actually fine. I think he's, I don't talk to him very often. He's like a CFO of a company in Richmond, Virginia, of all places. So it gives me faith that my son may actually, you know, not live at home for the rest of his life. 

Jon Chee - 00:08:29: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I definitely had my time where I had to live at home with the parents and like, so like I was right there, but I feel like what it was for me was I kind of like finding that, I don't want to say necessarily like passion, but just like the thing that got me excited and engaged. And I think too, something too about, and this is just a me thing because like the way, at least we were, learning in the curriculum that we were learning was so. Text heavy and not very, I'm a visual learner. And so as I was like, before the inspiration to pursue like biology and biochemistry, it was just like. And because biology and biochemistry has a lot of like, kind of, you can think of it like in systems and kind of like, I can envision it in my head, but whenever I was doing math, I was just like, my brain can't compute. Like it just doesn't feel right to me. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:09:21: How come every single problem is different? 

Jon Chee - 00:09:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:09:25: I was like, God, can't I just like- 

Jon Chee - 00:09:27: Yeah, where's the pattern? That's exactly it. I'm just like, God. And I could never commit it to memory. But then something clicked when it came to biology. I was like, oh, like I can actually like remember now kind of like all of this, like everything that I'm ingesting like academically. So it was like, for me, that was an aha moment. So it sounds like you were kind of exposed to chemistry via your father and Kodak. As you were starting to think about university, can you put us back then? Like, what were you feeling then? Did you know exactly where you wanted to go for your undergraduate and also what you wanted to focus on? 

Michael Paliotti - 00:10:02: Yes and no. So I think back when and like, once again, I'm probably dating myself, you know, it seemed like everybody wanted to either be a doctor, a lawyer, policeman, you know, whatever. The technology, you know, that we have now, as far as those particular careers really weren't there. I mean, we still took type. I think it was called keyboarding. You know, learning how to type. Actual typewriters are very, very old computers, you know, in high school. So I don't want to say it was more limited, but we didn't. I mean, the internet didn't even exist. I mean, I didn't even know to look up anything. Right. I mean, it's like, I guess this is what I'll do. And so I think a lot of people that went, you know, like life science, like myself, biology kind of came in saying, okay, I guess I'll be a doctor. Right. That seems to be the thing to do and good lifestyle and whatnot. So that's that is how I entered the university undergrad. Although I did have the foresight, which is kind of interesting that I did to not take premed as my major, but biology as my major. So just in case I didn't become a doctor, which obviously did not happen, I don't go out and try to get a job. And they're like, what the hell's premed? I'm like, no, it's because I was supposed to do this, but I didn't. So I don't really know how it applies. You know, so where biology seemed to make sense. So I'm glad I did that. And of course, that's how it worked out. So. 

Jon Chee - 00:11:21: When you're at Notre Dame, did you have a wet lab, like undergraduate experience? 

Michael Paliotti - 00:11:26: So surprisingly not. No. So I really didn't make that transition to, you know, not wanting to be a physician until about my junior year. And I remember the time I knew my wife at the time we met, we met at Notre Dame and been married 28 years. It was my junior year and the MCATs came up and I'm like, well, crap, I don't want to take that. Like, so decision made, you know, and it didn't help that my, well, I guess maybe it did help my roommate at the time. His name was Torin Fitton, really great guy. He was going to be a doctor and that was his passion from like the day he was born. Right. And he is this really world famous cardiologist, works at Johns Hopkins. I'm not sure where he is now, but he's at Johns Hopkins for a while and doing stellar. So, I mean, I would see, you know, the time that he would put in. He was one extreme. Not that I obviously wasn't studying hard, but I'm like, I just don't have that passion. Right. And if I don't have that passion, that doesn't, that can't be the right thing for me. And it kind of was a default anyway. And so I didn't have the lab experience because I just never thought that I was going to be in research. And I'll be honest with you, even before, you know, I got, went into my master's degree, I wasn't going to do research either. And I don't even think you probably don't even know this, but after I graduated from the University of Notre Dame. I actually went to optometry school. I'm like, okay, this is kind of a, it's kind of like a doctor. Right. And so I was in optometry school for probably, and this was in Chicago, the South Side of Chicago. So it was a really rough area. And I was there for probably, well, God, maybe only like three or four months. And part of that was, I think too, is like, okay, I'm not sure that this is exactly what I wanted to do. And like I said, I was in the South Side of Chicago and the part of the rationale why they had the school there is because it was. Laura, so, so you economic class, you get a lot more pathologies of people come in, you know, it's free and all that stuff. So you really get good training. But I do remember when I first pulled up, I mean, it was like almost like a fortress, the school. I'm like, God, this is not how I want it. How do I live? It was like only a couple of blocks from the Robert Taylor's Cabrini green, you know, those types of things that people heard of those. Right. And so it was kind of like, ah, I don't know if I want to, I want to do this either. And so that was really a transition in my life that I would have up to that point would have never thought. I would have taken. And I just said, you know what? I don't want to do this. I called my parents and say, hey, listen, I just I had actually had a 4.0 at that time. Right. But I'm like the backstabbing, all this stuff. I'm like, this is just not me. And so I actually had a pickup truck at the time. So I just threw all the stuff back in the pickup truck and headed home and, you know, just popped at the front door. And my parents are like, okay, well, now what are you going to do? I'm like, oh. 

Jon Chee - 00:14:14: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:14:15: The first thing I remember that they told me the first thing you need. You do is get a job. It doesn't matter what it is. Right. So that you can make some some money and save up for whatever your next step was. And and so I actually did. I worked. So I was back in Rochester and I worked for a law firm for a while. And I actually worked for Xerox, Xerox Business Services. They did like the the mail and the posted or delivering the mail, but also messenger services and all that stuff for a variety of different law firms and other institutions that needed that type of service. So is that a law firm? And that was really cool, because I met so many different people there and I got to really know a variety of different things, not only from the law standpoint, but just interacting with people. And if you found out that, you know, the most as I found throughout my career, the most influential people were, you know, the administrative assistants. Right. You know, I found out more from them and whatnot and really fostered some really cool relationships with some of them. So, you know, so I did that for a while. And I remember one point when we had gone on vacation. So my, in law's live in Phoenix. And so we were out here visiting and I was taking a walk with my father in law and who is electrical engineer. You know, he worked for BAE Systems and was at the Pentagon, all this other stuff. But we don't even know what he did. 

Jon Chee - 00:15:31: Yeah, yeah.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:15:31: And it was a really highly successful, you know, science oriented guy, too. And I said, you know, this I just feel like a failure because, you know, here I had, you know, all these plans and, you know, I went to the university of Notre Dame. I was a valedictorian in my high school for crying out loud, you know, and all of a sudden here I am, I'm working for a law firm, but not even a law firm. I'm just delivering the mail to them. Right. And I don't know what I want to do. Right. And I remember him telling me, take me aside, say, hey, you know, you don't have to know what you want to do. You know, you just need to find, like you were saying earlier, your niche and what makes you happy and go from there. So that made me feel a lot better because, you know, you get to that point, you're like, you know, I've invested all this time. I'm invested all this while my parents invested the money, but, you know, all the money, you know, and I have this degree and all of a sudden I'm like, really? And so it took me some time. But that's when I figured out. Okay, I want to go back to get my my degree. I know I didn't want my PhD. Because that was just too much. And I'm glad I didn't do that. And we can chat about that if you want to. But so I said, I want to go back and get my master's degree. So that's where I applied to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh. My brother happened to be an undergrad there, too, is kind of coincidental that I chose that I did choose to apply to other places. And so that's how how I got to that path. And that's where I really started the research and really got more interested in doing that for, you know, potentially for a job. 

Jon Chee - 00:16:51: That's really cool. And there's so many things that stood out to me as you were describing that post kind of like that post undergrad kind of like existential kind of like crisis, what it could feel like one, because I, I had the same thing. I didn't want to go be a practicing physician. At least I was fortunate enough to enjoy lab work. But I, you know, I wasn't quite there where I was like, this is like this is the long, long term. This is the thing. And I also worked at a law firm. And- 

Michael Paliotti - 00:17:21: Oh, really? 

Jon Chee - 00:17:22: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I also and I think love my folks who are in the legal realm. It wasn't for me. It's a different kind of work. And at that point, it was exactly kind of a similar situation where it's just like went back to mom and dad. I was like, what do I can I just like, big help help me figure this out for like a moment. Like I work super hard, like trying to get my biochemistry, like learn biochemistry, do all this. I was like, I just need to like, figure this out momentarily. And I think to exactly what you said is just like, and your in law, kind of the advice is like you don't. Need to have it all figured out, like you really don't, and I think a lot of the time, especially with the proliferation of, like the internet, there's more avenues to consume more information now. Yeah. A lot of people are just like, this is how you need to do this, to do, to get, to that. Or like you know and it can be overly prescriptive. And then I think if you like, I can imagine I'm just like trying to be empathetic, about it it's like if I were in your shoes and everyone's telling you, you need to do this, to get that but, you're like that's not resonating with you, you can just like, oh my God. Like you can feel, like. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:18:29: Yeah let people down, or I'm failing, yeah. You know, because it was always like, I had this path. Right? And so far up to that point. I traversed quite a bit of it successfully, and then all of a sudden it didn't end where I thought, it was going to be and like, now I had no idea where to go. 

Jon Chee - 00:18:44: Yeah. And and something too that really stood out to me as well, is that, at your you know your law firm kind of Xerox Business Services, experience. I've noticed, noticed this too, like the kind of, administrative assistant, executive assistant role. It's a really interesting opportunity, because like, you're able to get exposure, if you're kind of working with an exec who's just kind of all over the place, all across a company, you get exposure to so many different things, you're like finance, operations, legal, sales, marketing, and you can kind of just like, it's kind of like a cheat code almost. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:19:18: Yeah. 

Jon Chee - 00:19:18: Versus like if you join a specific role in a specific department, it's really hard to like. Get that breadth of exposure and that role. You're kind of like, I don't know what I don't want to say like on an island, but you're kind of like this free floating.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:19:32: Well, and it's kind of interesting that you use that analogy too, because that was actually very similar to why I didn't get my PhD, right? I felt my master's was kind of going to get me more open where PhD. Is like, okay, you're going to focus on this and you got to finish a project and it's got to might take you a long time. And then heaven forbid, that's not good enough. You got to do a postdoc. I'm like, this is just stupid. Not that I didn't have a thesis for my master's, but it was more defined. Right. And I did try a lot of different things. I'm like, all right, I'm not pigeonholed into this particular gene right now. Then I go out into the real world. I'm like, what do you know? Uh, this gene. 

Jon Chee - 00:20:05: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And at least for me, I think that has at least served me well, is kind of getting that breadth of exposure. I definitely have friends, colleagues, and family members who are. Are excelling with that deep specialization. And they're like, top percentile of that kind of domain. But I've never seen myself as like that. I was kind of like, yeah, I'm like, pretty decent at a lot of things. I'm pretty decent. And, you know, I might not, you know, I'll follow you, I can follow, but I won't lead on this. But that element of being able to like, do that across domains, I found that whether it's biological thinking, or is it like, kind of more quantitative, like marketing can all it all cross pollinates, and you find a way to utilize these skill sets or like, you know, and so anyway, when tell us about your about your master's experience, it sounds like the you know, you kind of had a similar mindset around it. And then it sounds like this is when you started to actually get more wet lab experience.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:21:11: Yeah, exactly. So one of the reasons I actually like Duquesne, for everybody out there that doesn't know how to spell, that's the D-U-Q-U-E-S-N-E that you never knew how to pronounce. And you see them in the NCAA Tournament. Who's Duquesne now? It's Duquesne. Part of the reason I chose them is because it was strictly a master's program, too. They did not have a PhD. I think they subsequently do now. But so there was no focus as you were a secondary citizen. Right. So that's part of the reason I like that. And therefore, their master's program was the research that they did. And so I really enjoyed that. And I worked in the lab of Dr. Peter Kastrick and he was a microbiologist by trade. And obviously, you know, we did a lot of molecular biology and that type of stuff. And and the one thing I and, you know, this is more of a sign of the times, but I really did appreciate it is is not only for a lack of some of the technology, but also because it was a master's program. There wasn't funding either. Everything I learned, I did the old fashioned way. Right. So when we did PCR, I mean, you know, you still had the oil that you had to put on the top. There were no heated lids and all that type of stuff. And, you know, DNA extractions were with phenol, you know, phenol chloroform. So. Maybe it wasn't the safest stuff that we did, you know- 

Jon Chee - 00:22:25: Like mouth pipetting, like mouth pipetting. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:22:27: Oh yeah, for sure. And it's like, and so, but you know, when I went out in the real world and then we started using, you know, spin columns for, for DNA prep, I'm like, well, that's cool, but I actually know why it works. Right. Or I know how it works or, you know, so it was really eyeopening to me and, you know, other people, it's like, they've been using kits their whole, their whole life or whatever. And I'm not saying that you have to really know, but you just have a deeper understanding of the science. And so I think I had more of a appreciation, not only of what the processes were, but like what I knew, you know, I had to do and how much easier it is now. Right. And how much more efficient it is. So, so I really enjoyed that. And, you know, he was, he was a good mentor. He was, you know, strict, but fair. And that's, you know, the kind of overall working environment, you know, I like, like to be in, you know, you want to be held accountable, but you don't want to be, you know, you know, subjugated to, you know, crazy little duties either. So I learned, I learned a lot from that. And the nice thing too, is it was more broad. So, you know, I had microbiology classes. I also had molecular biology classes, but, you know, so I didn't, I didn't learn, you know, just one, one thing. It was more of a kind of a liberal arts biology ish, you know, master's program. And so that then ended up, you know, I think working really well for me trying to find a job thereafter. 

Jon Chee - 00:23:43: Very cool. And I love that. And I think too, like when I got my first wet lab experience as well, it was just that exactly where you're describing, like being held accountable and like, kind of like setting the bar. Like that was kind of like one of the come to Jesus moments is just like, Oh, the bar is like up here. Like I really need to step it up. And it really just like fine tuned, like how I, I care like that work ethic and how I carried myself, which was like really necessary and very formative for me. And I love that too. It's just like, what you said is also high standard, but also just fair. Like that's the perfect combination. Like, and love that they gave you the ability to just like, kind of have that breadth of exposure to, I was like thinking about it. The reason why I even worked at that law firm was because I basically doubled in philosophy. And so there was a moment where I thought that I could, I was like, maybe I'll like utilize this biochemistry plus like legal kind of like studies to become like a patent lawyer or like, you know, and, but I was like, the law firm life isn't for me, but I still, even though I kind of hung up the, the kind of jurisprudence kind of like lens, I still utilize those kind of like, you know, the rigor of like philosophical thinking, kind of like a lot of kind of like thought experiments and kind of like logic kind of like argumental argument stuff. And it helps in business because like, whenever we're like drafting contracts and stuff like that, I still am like, Oh, like this is kind of the stuff that I was learning in school. I'm actually using it. I don't have the JD, but it's still actually useful. So like mom, dad, like I'm actually getting back value of, for you helping me with, with school. So after you've, you know, it sounds like you've got an awesome exposure and like, you know, experience at Master’s maybe before moving into your first roles outside of school, just how was, you know, being in Pittsburgh, you know, you're talking about being in New York, Notre Dame, and then, you know, now at Duquesne, what were that personally for you? It was like being in different places.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:25:45: Yeah. It was an interesting experience for me because, you know, I grew up in the suburbs and Indiana's, I mean, you know, South Bend, Indiana is nothing to really write home about as far as the city is concerned, nothing against them, but it's just not that big. Right. And so then Duquesne University was literally downtown on the bluff in Pittsburgh. So it was a much more urban setting. And so it was the first time where I had, you know, my own apartment. Right. And I used to walk across the bridge and up, up the bluff, you know, and to school every day. And it was interesting to me because not only, you know, was I pursuing something now that I feel I had a better grasp on, but I was actually like living a real life. Right. I had to go to the degrees and I had to make, you know, cook my cook stuff. And, you know, my wife will never let me forget. You know, there's, there's times where like, you know, I would just I would say I'd cook some soup. Right. And I figured, well, talk about efficiency instead of instead of like, you know, just pouring it in a saucepan, cooking up, I just opened up the can, just set the can, right on the, uh, the oven. And then start on the stove, and then stir it a little bit and then you'll get a hot, hot hand and then pick it up, and just eat it out. I mean, it's, it's the pan, it's the bowl, and you don't have to clean up everything.

Jon Chee - 00:26:58: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:27:00: I used to do that all the time. I mean, I probably shouldn't say that. But I mean, you know, hey there's efficiency. And there was times where, I remember, she would come and visit me, and you know, you know, I didn't have a dishwasher, and the dishes weren't- There I'm like, she's like you need to do the dishes, I'm like, yeah, I think I'm just gonna throw them out. 

Jon Chee - 00:27:17: Your efficiency. It's gonna take me longer to do this. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:27:22: Anyway. I mean, as long as they have a can opener and a spoon, I'm good to go. 

Jon Chee - 00:27:26: Yeah it's so funny. I have a similar story too, like when, my wife and I, were you know, in our early apartment. We would be like making, like soup, as well. And, I would just like grab the actual like pot, and just like, eat it out of the pot, like, I don't want to clean the, I want to clean the bowl. And she's like could you not do that, please. Like can you be just like, a civilized for a moment. And get a bowl, and like do this. But I love that. And so, now you know Duquesne sounds like a pretty like pivotal kind of moment for you, and how did you approach like finding your first gig? 

Michael Paliotti - 00:28:01: Yeah. So it was interesting. So I had a really good friend at Duquesne and we, you know, we did everything together. He was actually in my wedding as well. And he had a contact over at the University of Pittsburgh and he had gotten a job over there. And so luckily for me, they wanted to research associates at the time. And so he recommended me. And so that's how that worked out, which was really cool. I mean, you know, trying to find your first job sometime, it's it's crazy. And they won't tell you how much they paid us. It was ridiculous if you think about it right now. And so that worked out really well because there were two postdocs and it was in Ronald Montalaro's lab. They did HIV work at the University of Pittsburgh. Really well funded lab. Pretty big lab. I would say there's probably about 15 people. And there were two postdocs that were looking for research associates. So he worked for one and I worked for the other. And so I did that for a couple of years. And of course, you know, you gain more experience there, especially being in it. You know, the University of Pittsburgh versus Duquesne, obviously the funding was much more robust, if you will, at the larger university. And I mean, they're only down the street from each other. So I really got that experience and kind of learned, okay, some more techniques, you know, had more funding available to me to learn to do more stuff. And so that's where I started to learn more, you know, more cell culture, you know, ELISAs, other immunoassays. And it's very, very funny that I ended up working for Millipore, MilliporeSigma. I remember one time we had a Millie Q system and I was filling up one of those carboys. And there's a reason why they put the carboys in the sinks when they fill them up, because if you don't and you go to lunch and you come back and there's like this much water on the sink. 

Jon Chee - 00:29:38: Yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:29:39: Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. So I'll never forget that. I remember walking in. Everybody's like, what? I'm like, oh, sorry. 

Jon Chee - 00:29:47: My bad. My bad. Yeah.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:29:50: They fix those. Now I know you can do volumetric stuff, but that's kind of funny. And that was really, really great, too. And I think, you know, one of the key things there was who I worked for. So I worked for Dr. Sarah Tenza at the time. And and she was a really good mentor for me. Very same thing, you know, strict but fair. You're a classic scientist. But it was through her that I actually was able to, you know, follow, if you will, in my next progressions of a step. So I guess I'm already going on the theme is like, you know, hey, it's who you hit your cart to is really kind of helps as well. I mean, obviously, you have to know what you're doing. But, you know, knowing my one friend getting in the University of Pittsburgh and then knowing Sarah, who went to Cellomics, which was a small startup in Pittsburgh at the time, she pulled me over, you know, after a short amount of time. Now, I will say this. Another thing that's not on my resume that you may or may not be interested in. And so when I was at the University of Pittsburgh, I'm like, all right, cool. This is nice. It came up that they were looking. Well, I found out how for a forensic scientist for the Pennsylvania State Police. And to get that job, you had to take the civil service exam. Right. And I remember taking it. And there's all these really specific questions about whatever they do. Right. And I'm like, I have no idea. I mean, I don't know. I took it like whatever, you know, it is what it is. It's kind of a pie in the sky type thing. Well, anyway, they call me in for an interview and, you know, I pretty much tell them that I say, hey, I do not know some of this stuff. I said, but, you know, here's my background. Here's what I do. I mean, I can learn it. Right. You know, and I think with my personality, they're like, oh, so they gave me a shot. And so I actually worked for the Pennsylvania State Police for eight months. It was at the barracks. Outside of Pittsburgh, which is Greensburg, which is about an hour, hour and 15 minutes outside the city. So it was a decent drive for me every day. And that was another eye opening experience, too. You talk about, you know, low funding and whatnot. And everybody nowadays, especially like, oh, CSI, that must have been so cool. That was the worst job. What we did, I mean, it wasn't all this like, you know, fancy stuff going out into the, you know, into the crime scenes or whatnot. No, it was just being at this bench with basically very, very little funding to do really anything. And I don't mean to be coarse or anything, but all I did was rape kit after rape kit after rape kit. Right. You know, and so it got to be very monotonous, but also got to be a little bit psychologically disturbing, if you will. You know, like, wow, there's this many cases that, you know, have, you know, rapes the issue or, you know, whatever. And so I was in the group that was doing obviously bodily fluids, blood serology and that type of thing. You know, so that became very monotonous. But one of the things that was really cool, though, is when I first started there, they would send me to Harrisburg, capital of Pennsylvania, where headquarters was for the Pennsylvania State Police during the week for I think was about a month. And I could come back to Pittsburgh on the weekend. And so they gave me this cop car was unmarked cop car with. So it was a Caprice classic, but it had a Corvette engine in it. 

Jon Chee - 00:32:52: Oh, my God. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:32:55: They're like, here, you can drive us. Sweet. So I made it to Harrisburg in like no time. But I learned a lot there, too. And, you know, it was just coincidental. I happen to be like only one of two people that were training at the time. And the lady there who was, you know, pretty much putting us through all the trainings was just awesome. And I end up going over to her house for dinner a couple of nights. And, you know, she was married to a state trooper and all this other stuff, got to know him really well. But I learned so much of like all the different stuff they did, you know, and people always ask me, what was the most interesting thing? And I always say they're surprised that it was it was documents, basically, you know, forgeries or, you know, basically pulling off signatures with using different types of chemicals and stuff or handwriting analysis. And like that, I thought was always the coolest part. But the problem was in Pennsylvania, they had a division of labor. Civilians only did certain things and then troopers did others. So civilians did like DNA, blood, drugs, not literally, but, you know, drug analysis, arson and that type of stuff. And then the troopers would do documents. Documents, ballistics and a few other things. So unfortunately, I never really and the troopers would go out in the field and collect the evidence. So we never went out there either. So all that kind of fun stuff you see on TV, like, you know, using luminol to follow the path and all that other stuff. It's like, no, you just they just give you the piece that has the blood on it and you just say, yeah, it's AB positive. 

Jon Chee - 00:34:16: Oh, man, that's great. Oh, man, that that looks kind of badass over there, like forgery and whatnot. Oh, that's crazy. I'm also they're just like, here are the keys to having like the keys. That's such a fun. And, you know, there's a couple of elements. There's continuing to get broad exposure and just being almost sounds like a sponge and just seeing how these tools and techniques that you've applied or you've gotten and acquired can be applied in like tons of different applications. And something that stood out to me, too, is who you're hitching your, you know, who you're hitching your wagon to is an important thing, because I think sometimes as scientists, when you're doing bench research, that's not really a focal point. It's just like, do the research like and do good research. And then you think that that is sufficient. It is necessary, but it's not sufficient. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:35:14: Correct. 

Jon Chee - 00:35:14: Which is the part that I wish I learned way earlier.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:35:19: Well, yeah, I don't think any of us really do until it's too late. 

Jon Chee - 00:35:22: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:35:24: Later on.  

Jon Chee - 00:35:24: Yeah. Like, oh, my God, I need to actually start focusing on this because I thought it would just like kind of like, you know, do you just kind of like my wife is in tech. It's very classic San Francisco thing. But they always like talk about how sometimes there's the myth that like if the product is good, people will find it like. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:35:43: Yeah. If you build it, they will come now. Yeah. 

Jon Chee - 00:35:45: No, no. I feel like the same kind of lesson here for just like, you know, if you're just like work, like if you do great research, everything will just like all roads will end at you. Which is like just not the case. It's not the case. You got it. You kind of have to make connections. Just one. Just like be a friendly person and just like it's like you're saying, it's like like a friendly with a lab mate and like someone at Duquesne result. Kind of you never know where things go and it just opens doors. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:36:12: And, you know, to follow along on that exact point. I mean, that's a great segue is so when I actually left the Pennsylvania State Police, it just, you know, just wasn't for me. I went back to the University of Pittsburgh, to the same exact lab. Now, and as you recall, I said at the very beginning when we were hired, there were two postdocs that needed research associates. Well, I worked for the one and my friend worked for the other. When I came back, my friend had left. So that second postdoc also needed a new research associate. So because I knew her, I came back into the lab and just kind of was in the other, the other side. So that was really, you know, once again, because I left the state police. I'm like, what do I do now? What am I going to do? I want to take me back. Right.  

Jon Chee - 00:36:56: Yeah.

Michael Paliotti - 00:36:57: And so they were a little bit reluctant. They're like, well, okay. You know, and honestly, I do remember talking with the PI, and he's like, okay, you know, you know, you're really good. You know, we want you back. But you got to give me your word or some confidence that you're going to stay here for a while because, you know, we can't be going to flip flop. And I completely understand. And, you know, at that time, I was like, yeah. But also when other things when opportunity knocks, you're like, well. 

Jon Chee - 00:37:22: Yeah. 

Michael Paliotti - 00:37:23: And so that's when the Cellomics thing came up, because the former postdoc that I worked with the first time around had gone there, a small little startup. And she's like, I want you to come over. And I'm like, how do I say no to that? Right. I mean, I wanted to get into industry anyway, and we can chat about why. But I mean, and so when she gave me that opportunity, I remember going to talk with a PI. And, you know, and he's, I mean, he's professional, but I mean, he was, he was quite upset. And I remember going to the wedding of another person in the lab afterwards and he didn't talk to me anymore. 

Jon Chee - 00:37:54: Oh, yeah. And sometimes it happens. Sometimes it happens.  

Michael Paliotti - 00:37:59: You know, I get it now. Do I regret that? I mean, I regret it from a personal standpoint. I didn't mean to put him in a precarious situation, but I mean, hey, it was a pivotal moment for me. I mean, that's when I got into the industry side and that's kind of where, you know, that part of my career took off. So it's sometimes you have to do what you have to do, but they're tough decisions. And, you know, sometimes you might have to even burn bridges with some of the people that you have. I don't highly recommend that. But if it is a pivotal point, that inflection point, then sometimes you just have to make that decision. So that was interesting for sure. 

Outro - 00:38:35: Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Michael Paliotti. Be sure to tune in for part two, where we explore Michael's early career from his time at the bench to his transition into the commercial side of life science. He shares what drew him to industry, how he navigated his first customer-facing role, and the lessons he learned about sales, problem solving, and relationship building. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.