Michael Paliotti: Navigating Biotech Careers & Building Lasting Relationships (Part 2/4)

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Intro - 00:00:50: Welcome to the biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, we spoke with Michael Paliotti about his academic background and what ultimately led him to transition out of the lab. He shared his early experiences in research, his decision to move into industry, and what motivated him to take that leap. If you missed it, be sure to listen to part one. In part two, Michael takes us through the beginning of his commercial career, how he adjusted to working with customers, the differences between academia and industry, and the mindset shift required to succeed in sales. We'll also discuss how he approached building trust with scientists, the importance of long-term relationship building, and how he found his footing in a new role. So tell me a little bit more about what was it about industry that like interested you? And then tell me a little bit about like Cellomics.  

Michael- 00:02:06: Yeah, you know, I think I was always kind of more business oriented. I mean, that was kind of always like a side interest of mine, you know, stock market and all that other stuff, even though I didn't have any much money to invest, but just understanding all that. So I think, you know, being in that whole atmosphere is something I wanted to combine, right? The science and also the business. And I like the idea of actually, you know, producing products too, right? So you can actually see at the end what your work actually went to. Not to say that that doesn't happen in academia, but it's more, you know, just basic science. You're trying to answer questions. You're not necessarily going towards a specific goal as far as a product. So when I came over to Cellomics, they were one of the pioneers at the time for high-content screening which was basically, you know, looking at individual cells and looking within, those individual cells of how you might see different metabolites or whatever moving. And so it was kind of a novel thing at the time. And they were really the forerunners on it. They obviously didn't market it very well because they didn't end up being the forerunners. In fact, I think they ended up getting purchased by Thermo. But it was interesting too. So it was like, wow, here's some innovation, right? But also we're working towards a final product. And so I was there working on some of the kits for that machine, which was called the ArrayScan II at the time. And we were working like on NF-kB moving in the nucleus, some of that type of thing, you know, trying to see, you know, what... We were treating the cells with what would signify certain pathways or whatnot. But the interesting thing, though, is the lab that I was in, which was with a former postdoc, she had a DARPA grant, which is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, if nobody knows what that is. And we actually were working on biosensors for a variety of different toxins, one of those being botulism. But it was kind of cool. So we were working on all these different types of really like cool stuff. The idea is that, you know, they could have these ArrayScans or mini versions on the back of a Humvee out in the field, right? And they could do some of these analyses and say, okay, you know, is this airborne toxin here, right? That type of stuff. So that was really kind of cool work, too, which segues me into kind of another thing, too, is like it was very interesting. It was at that time that 9-11 happened. So I think everybody in my generation remembers, you know, when 9-11 happened, my parents was when Kennedy got shot, for us it was 9-11. And so I remember exactly where I was. And, you know, looking at the screen and my buddy comes over to me, he's like, oh, there's a plane that just crashed into the World Trade Center. I'm like, yeah, we thought it was like a Cessna or something like that. It's kind of sucks, but, you know, whatever. And of course, you know, it obviously manifested into what it was. But going back to the DARPA thing, after, you know, things settled down, we ended up getting a visit from the FBI because we were working on these toxins. Because if you remember, shortly after 9-11, they had a scare of... 

Jon - 00:04:59: Anthrax. 

Michael- 00:05:00: Anthrax. Yes, Anthrax. And we were working in Anthrax. Sorry, just too much going on. So we were working on that. And so they had that scare. And so they came to talk with us. Well, I guess, make sure that we were on the up and up, number one. And number two, just to get some information. So I'm like, that was kind of funky. And we were in a small little incubator at the time. So we didn't actually even have our own buildings. So for them to come out, like it was outside Pittsburgh, you know, built the 50s.  

Jon - 00:05:23: Were there like FBI jackets? 

Michael- 00:05:25: Yeah, yeah. It was crazy. They weren't there very long. But I'm like, this is kind of weird. I'm like, yeah, no, it wasn't me. 

Jon - 00:05:34: Yeah, I promise it was not me. 

Michael- 00:05:36: Because, you know, I think, you know, they were, you know, looking at all these different labs. It had funding or that had gotten significant amounts of, you know, Anthrax or these other toxins. I mean, we got it legally, of course. I'm just making sure, you know, hey, maybe we know something. Maybe we don't know something. Maybe we can, you know, whatever. So that was kind of an interesting aspect of that. 

Jon - 00:05:56: That's crazy. That's crazy. And I, you know, I'm thinking about. Exactly what you said about, like, the opportunity to create a product. And you mentioned that eventually they got acquired. And you're talking about, like, the product being can be revolutionary. But just like, again, just communicating the product to the end users and getting the word out is so critically important. 

Michael- 00:06:18: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:06:18: And that's why I always think about that from the perspective of like Apple and like Steve Jobs, like effective communicator. 

Michael- 00:06:26: Well, they create. Yeah, they created a market. I mean, you know, they they didn't created a phone that did stuff, right? They did a created a small computer that also happened to be phone. Right. And so that, you know, that's the tough part of it. I mean, in my wine business, it's the same thing. I mean, our wine is really good. You know, and in the wine industry, too, the saying is, hey, making wine is not difficult. Selling wine is the problem. And that's that's the truth. And so, you know, it's getting that word out there. How do you differentiate yourself and how do you create that market that people want to wait in line? You know, before the iPhones are even released, you know, for days just because they need it. That's the tough part. Those are the true visionaries that can do that. 

Jon - 00:07:10: And something too, something that I've learned as I've continuously working on it, and just as a company, we're always working on it too. And for anyone who's out there who's maybe running or contemplating starting a company that makes products and that will eventually have to sell products, is that selling features will only get you so far. A lot of buying decisions are not incredibly rational. There's a lot of qualitative emotional aspects too that go into a purchasing decision. And this is not to say that you can have bad features. It is, again, necessary to have a good product. But again, it's insufficient. 

Michael- 00:07:49: Well, and even then many times, and this goes when, you know, when I got my MBA too, is like, you know, some of these companies you learn about, they can actually create the imagery of a product that people just desire. Maybe even the product is not even the best. And one good example of that, and I don't want anybody to be bad at me, but it's Harley-Davidson right?, They mean they have, you know, a cult following and it's awesome. But at the end of the day, writing a, from what I understand, writing a Harley-Davidson is not the most, you know, it's not the best, smoothest ride. 

Jon - 00:08:20: It's not the easiest ride. 

Michael- 00:08:22: Yeah. I mean, you know, there are better bikes out there as far as smooth ride, probably miles per gallon or whatnot, but you know, that doesn't matter, right? It's the name and the image behind it and how they were able to create that whole ecosystem. And it's, it's really, it's really amazing. 

Jon - 00:08:39: Yeah. And I think that that kind of, again, just like this breadth of learnings, it also can apply. You can bring that those kind of concepts to science, too. Like and not to say that you should be peddling inferior product.  

Michael- 00:08:53: Oh, yeah. No, no, no. 

Jon - 00:08:55: It's right. Like when magic happens is if you have an excellent product and you can effectively communicate it and appeal to not just the quantitative aspects of your product. And then also, like, especially for anyone who's out there trying to figure out how to crack larger organizations and enterprises, that becomes like a whole nother thing where there's like 12 stakeholders and they all care about different things. And some of them are not rational. And but some of them are not rational. Probably the end user who's actually hands on the thing. Probably like like this is going to like materially change my workflow. It will save me hours. But then there's like 10 other people who actually don't really care that you're saving 10 hours, but they care about other things. And how do you communicate that and communicate that? 

Michael- 00:09:41: It blows my mind to some of the products, you know, how they how they actually are released, you know, for just your regular consumer stuff. And you're like, this is this is just stupid. I mean, this is kind of off the subject, but I mean, same type of thing. I just picked up my new company car yesterday or the day before. It's a Toyota RAV4. I'm like, all right, it's cool. I had a Subaru before. Anyway, long story short, just driving my wife last night. I'm like, this is stupid. The volume to control the radios on this side, but to be able to control the change of the channels over here, where the Subaru was both on the same side. I said, I drive like this. So I'm like changing the volume. Now I got to go change this. I mean, you know, it's like, why didn't you think of it? Just put these stupid buttons over here. I don't even know what they do. They ask anybody, right? 

Jon - 00:10:24: Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes that just happens. Like it's like when there's like many stakeholders, things get lost in the mix. And sometimes the decisions that are made are just not rational. Like, and they don't. It doesn't make sense. 

Michael- 00:10:35: It's like, did you ask the person who might drive the car? You know, we don't all drive like this. 

Jon - 00:10:40: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And so, you know, it sounds like Cellomics was like, well, I guess maybe just a question. It was a startup. Like, you know, how was it like just, it sounds like you had a lot of like tactical experience, but what was it just like working at a startup or when you were previously in an academic kind of environment?  

Michael- 00:11:00: Yeah, no, I mean, that was very interesting. I mean, it was exciting because you could wear a variety of different hats, right? And so we were working on the DARPA project. We were working on, you know, other projects. I remember we had something that was coming, the kinetic scan coming out, which was doing, you know, more kinetics as opposed to just steady state looking at high-content screening. So, you know, I got to work on that a little bit and be on a variety of different teams. But, you know, there's also like, hey, you know, we have to get the product out or we are, you know, have limited amount of time. I'm not going to lie to you. I mean, we had, and this is one of the reasons why I ended up leaving is, you know, we had some layoffs, right? And like, well, we didn't meet these, you know, particular deadlines or, you know, we've been working on this and you know what, it doesn't work or, you know, it doesn't work to what we want. Right. So, I mean, it's exciting because I mean, you know, the world's your oyster with respect to like, okay, we can do this. Like, you know, we're trying to basically create something nobody else has done before. And if we do, it could be great. And meanwhile, I'm learning a whole bunch of different things, but you know, so be it. And so that's really what happened. I remember we had one set of layoffs and there was two research associates in the lab, myself and an older gentleman who I got to know really well. His name was Rich Cumbie. And I remember when they had the first set of layoffs and he was there before me and I'm like, oh crap. And you know, they ended up laying off him. And then to this day, I'm like, I couldn't, well, I can figure it out, but I'm like, I don't understand why, you know, they laid off him as opposed to me. He had been there longer, you know? And I think it was just kind of, you know, I was more of a, you know, go getter up and coming, just wide open to type things, you know, and he was more, you know, set in his ways and not that it was horrible. And I really loved him. You have to remember in Pittsburgh. So the climate is a little bit different from out here in California. So he used to go out for smoke breaks, you know, like all the time and outside. And I used to joke with him and said, Hey, Rich, I said, I actually calculated. So as many times you go out for smoke breaks, I can quit December 18th. And then I have the rest of it. Cause that's about the amount of time. 

Jon - 00:12:52: Yeah.  

Michael- 00:12:53: So they let, you know, they let him go. And then we actually ended up moving to a new building surprisingly enough, which was in the works prior to that. We actually were in the third floor and there was nobody else up there. So I was up there kind of just doing work, but also moving some stuff and whatnot. And I remember Sarah came up to me and my boss, who was the postdoc back in University of Pittsburgh, said, hey, you know, we're having another set of layoffs. You know, they've already let people go on the third floor. I'm like, I don't know what the hell's going on. You know, meanwhile, everybody's crying downstairs. I'm upstairs. But I'm like, oh, okay, I didn't know that. Thanks. Thanks for telling me. And so, you know, we kind of went through these iterations and I could kind of see the writing on the wall. I'm like, all right. You know, and obviously I'm doing these experiments and seeing where the product is going or where it might not be going or that type of thing. And so I'm like, all right, you know, maybe this is a time that I, you know, I need to kind of step back and, you know, maybe pull out, start looking for other alternatives. And so that's when we ended up moving out to California, which is an interesting story, too. So my wife was getting her master's in education. So she's an elementary school principal out here in Vista, California now. But she was a teacher prior to that. And so when we were looking for when I was looking for jobs, I'm like, oh, my God, we're in Pittsburgh. There's not a heck of a lot here. I mean, you know, Cellomics was really the only game in town as far as that's concerned. What do we want to do? And so we weren't really sure. And we were spending another vacation out in Phoenix and we're sitting by the pool. And I'm like, man, like, what are we doing in Pittsburgh? I mean, that's the most temperate climate we've ever been in because she went to Notre Dame, too. She was from New Hampshire. It was even worse than Rochester, New York. Right. And we're like, all right, you know, this is our chance to maybe just see what's out there. We don't have kids right at the moment. You know, we don't have a lot of stakeholders here. I mean, no family close by. I mean, in Pittsburgh. So let's try it. And so this is this is another one of those inflection points in my life where if you had asked me what I was thinking, I'm like, I don't know. But we basically just said we're moving to either San Diego because the biotech there, Houston was another one. At the time, there's a few biotechs there and then or Research Triangle Park. That's what we wanted to do. And we're like, okay, San Diego sounds like probably the best part. You know, let's see what we can do there. And so within like four weeks, she actually had a job interview at the same district here in Vista. It was at a charter school at the time, but it still was in Vista Unified, of which she is still part of to this day. You know, and she got the job out here, you know, right away. And I'm like, oh, my God. And I didn't even have a position. So I was talking with a couple of people. And I literally got my job. I'll never forget my job offer in Visalia, Illinois, on the way out there. I was driving the big 26 foot rider truck. I remember talking to them, negotiating my salary in Illinois. And so, you know, I really didn't even have a position until I was halfway out here, which was kind of crazy because I'm like, oh, you're just picking up everything and just leaving and going to California. I felt like we're on the Oregon Trail, you know. And so my dad, luckily, well, not luckily, but coincidentally, had just retired at that time. So he took I had a Volkswagen Jetta. He drove my Jetta. I drove the 26 foot truck and my wife had a new Beetle and we had two dogs and the dogs were both in the backseat, you know, anesthetized. They're kind of one dog would never sit, never want to lay down, even though they had enough Benadryl on them to like knock them out. I was always trying to like every single day. So it took us, I think, five days to get out here. A couple hundred, you know, a couple of eight hour days to get out here. And, you know, that was kind of that's the way it is. And we ended up, you know, finding an apartment shortly about a house not too long thereafter, maybe a year or so in Vista. And we've been here ever, ever since. But that position that I got was with Genoptix. And once again, that's, you know, it had to do with not only what I was good at, but, you know, who I knew. And so there was the chief scientific officer at the company at the time was T.C. Chung. And he happened to know a couple of people at Cellomics because they went to SBS conferences together. I remember Joe Zock was one of the guys, you know. So when I went out and I started chatting with them at the interviews, you know, I wasn't I was name dropping, but not necessarily a purpose. Right. You know, because I didn't actually know he knew those some of those people. And, you know, it just kind of worked out really well. And I'm like, oh, wow, you'd be a good fit. You know, and I think about it now. I mean, I was a research associate. I mean, this would never happen today. I mean, this would never happen today. I mean, they flew me from Pittsburgh out to California for interviews, you know, and then flew me back. You know, I mean, you would never do that for a research sales associate nowadays. I mean, no way. You know, so I think about how lucky I was that, you know, they really wanted me. And, you know, during that time, that was somewhat, you know, not uncommon. I mean, not necessarily normal, but, you know, it was feasible. I mean, nowadays, I mean, you just find somebody locally. I mean, there's enough out here. Right. So, I got that position. And that was really interesting, too, because that company, Genoptix, was founded by Tina Nova, who was one of the original scientific founders, if you will. I think it was with Ligand originally kind of starting the biotech ecosystem that is down here in San Diego. So I got to know her really well. And, you know, if you look up her name, she's been all over the place as far as biotech is concerned. She's a big name. So that was really kind of interesting, too. And they had a really different technology. It was called optophoresis. And basically what they were doing is they were using light sources to move cells. So they're almost kind of like optical tweezers type thing. And we're trying to figure out, okay, you know, how to optimize that, how it can be used for not only just manipulation of cells, but also it was in flow cytometry and how that, you know, that can potentially work. So that was really interesting. I met some cool people there. My boss there. Her name was Cathy Schnabel. Really great person. And to this day, I'm so happy that I got to work for her. And she was really great. And, you know, my growth. But I also learned from her that she was the first manager I had who was really empathetic, really cared about, you know, me as a person. Right. And and also, you know, not only the science, but our team. And so, you know, we had to sometimes come in at like three o'clock in the morning, you know, and she'd be like, oh, I don't want you to do this. You know, we'll switch or I'll come in, you know, and like that was just now between like, wow, I really, you know, I really appreciate that. And so that really stuck with me as far as, you know, mulling on some of, you know, hey, this is how if I was ever going to have people underneath me, you know, how I'd want to be understanding because I know where I'm coming from now. And it's not always the easiest thing. And because of her, that's how I ended up transitioning out of Genoptix to go to Novartis because her husband worked at Novartis. And one of his good friends was a PI. Jing Li was looking for a research associate. So Cathy told her husband to tell Jing to hire Michael. And that's how that worked, too. So, I mean, it's it's a really consistent story. 

Jon - 00:19:56: That's amazing. And I think I love this hearing this because it's like and I love having these opportunities to have these kind of kinds of conversations because you can start seeing the through lines of it all, even. And you're talking about the experience where it didn't pan out. And sometimes people are worried about taking opportunities that might not pan out because they're like, you know, of course, it can be anxiety inducing. Like, you know, there you want some sort of certainty. Everyone wants some sort of certainty. But I always think about it from the other side where it's just like irrespective of like if the thing that they're working on is a worthwhile problem and you're working with people that you respect. That experience will ultimately be accretive. Like you're going to learn dope things. You're also going to meet awesome people. And you just never know who these awesome people, awesome people tend to know other awesome people. And exactly what you said, when you took that interview, you're like, I don't know that you know this person, but I just so happened to work with them. And I thought they were awesome. And they're like, oh, like, and that's the thing where it's just like, don't be shy for anyone out there listening. It's like, I am a shy person. Sometimes it took me a little bit of like getting out of my shell to kind of do it. And like you said, you don't need to like, just like name drop, but just like, you know, put yourself out there and good things tend to come. And something that also stood out to me is in addition to one, putting yourself out there and just trying to surround yourself with awesome people, but it is never too late to take like, just like a business pivot. Like you can do a personal pivot too. Like your pivot from Pittsburgh to California. That's a big one. That's like, it's a big one. And, and, and, and a lasting one, you know, it sounds like your, your, your wife has been in the unified school district for a long time, but like, it all starts with the willingness to make that pivot. Because I think sometimes you can kind of like get so zoned into the local maximum where you're just like. This is it for me. 

Michael- 00:21:52: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:21:53: And this is all I will ever known that this is all that I can access. It kind of reminds me of like, when you go from high school to college and like high school to college is a big one because you don't have to be hung up with what you were like or did in high school. You can just like, you move across country and explore and actually have self-discovery. That's like, you know, just like not that. And kind of like you, you come, you're able to do it from, you're like, all right, well, Pittsburgh, like, doesn't seem like, you know, this was the one shop in town. Like, let's just like, let's do it and just move. And it opens up doors that you, again, you just never know. So I love hearing that. It's funny because like, I'm just hearing it. I haven't left the Bay area. So it's kind of, so I'm like, you know, that, I'm always fascinated by this moving across country or these really, and same with people who are coming from international. I'm just like, dang, like that is like, you know, it takes a lot of courage to do it.  

Michael- 00:22:47: Yeah. Know, if you knew me prior to that, you know, like I said, the straight laced, you know, valedictorian, blah, blah, blah. I mean, that just didn't fit my personality, but it's taking that leap of faith. And luckily my wife was there with me and, you know, we were, you know, could do that together. Sometimes you just need to do it. And honestly, I think it's really helped shape the way I look at things now. And one of the things I'm kind of really known for at MilliporeSigma is trying to think outside the box, right? And like, I don't have to think within that local area, you know, how can we do this differently while we never, nobody ever thought of that or that's just stupid. I'm like, well, try it. Right. I mean, that's what going to, when I told my people, uh, friends in Pittsburgh, we're moving to California. I'm like. You know, that's just kind of what we're doing. I'm like, all right, we'll come help you pack. Not that they wanted to get rid of us, but help us back. Maybe some of them did. But, yeah. So, I mean, you know, just knowing in your past that you've done some of these things, you know, we sit back and after my wife and I have a glass of wine or something, just start chatting. Man, imagine the things some of the things we did, you know, those decisions, you know, they completely reshaped our lives, you know, moving from Pennsylvania out here. I mean, it would obviously not be anywhere close to the same if we hadn't made that decision, not to say that we wouldn't be successful in Pennsylvania. But I mean, the opportunities out here are just it's just different. Right. Especially in the field that I'm in. We just sit back and be like, God, you know, what led us to those? And thank goodness we we actually made those, you know. But it's also there are those inflection points that you come across in your life. And, you know, sometimes you make them. Sometimes there could be other inflection points that I did not make that. Right. But I went this way and I don't really know. No, but you actually walk the path, you know, as best you can that you make. And you try to make those decisions when the fork comes in the road appropriately. Sometimes you may. Sometimes you may not. Like I said, you might if you may not, you might not even know that you did it wrong. Right. But when you choose that path, you're committed and you just keep going until the next fork comes up and just say, okay, you know, sometimes you roll the dice and sometimes you're like, oh, this one's obvious. Right. So, yeah. 

Jon - 00:24:48: And it reminds me of you did a dice roll or not. It was a kind of a calculated dice well, for optometry. 

Michael- 00:24:54: Mm-hmm. 

Jon - 00:24:55: Yeah. And sometimes it just isn't what you thought it was. And that's okay. And I think I always think about it as like and piggybacking on what like Bezos called it is like the one way door, the two way door. If the decision that you're making is a two way door where you can just like reverse it, like if you don't like what you see, dice roll it like, you know, and but if it's like a one way door or this is like, oh, if I go through this door, there's no going back. Take your time with that one. Take that. 

Michael- 00:25:22: Right. 

Jon - 00:25:22: And don't get the paralysis. Just like don't get the paralysis when it is a two way door. You're like, if we can just roll this back and just like control Z it like. 

Michael- 00:25:32: Right. It'd be okay. You can be okay with it, you know, and realize it's not a failure. It's just, you know, uh, just another try at something I'd love, you know, at my wife's school, they had the word, you know, fail, but it stands for first attempt in learning, right? That's how they define the word fail. And it really is. I mean, it's like, Hey, I'm going to try this out. You know, it's my first attempt trying this didn't work, you know? All right. It's not a failure as far as like, I'm incompetent. It's just, it's not my cup of tea. And like you said, if you're in that revolving door, you just keep pushing it and-  

Jon - 00:26:02: Go right back. 

Michael- 00:26:03: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:26:03: Yeah. Just go right back. And he's like, that's okay. Like, all right. 

Michael- 00:26:06: Well, sometimes you get stuck in the door for a while, but then eventually. 

Jon - 00:26:08: Exactly. Eventually, eventually. And, and I think too, is this like, that's kind of like, at least in like, I found, especially in like, when it comes to company building, that aspect is like critically important because like you were talking about, like, especially in your early startup experience, it's like, you're measured by time. Like what can you get done in a finite amount of time? And if you're not making those decisions as efficiently as you can, the candle just starts, continues to burn down. And your, your judgment on these kinds of decision-making gets better over time, but it's a muscle that you need to build. Like you can't expect to be good at like figuring out quickly, is this a one-way or a two-way unless you start doing it early, like, and just like get practice and reps on it. There are one-way doors that I've missed when I thought were a two-way door. And I was like, oops. Like, and you learn and you learn and you take it with you the next time you just live with it, you know? But I think that that's a critically important because the better that you get at that both personally on a business side, you don't get that paralysis and you quickly can start to find like, what is it that you like? What are the work that you like to do? You start putting yourself in, you know, better and better positions every single time and it just gets better. So you mentioned that there's now the connection to Novartis. Like when did you know it was time to leave and head to Novartis? And then can you tell us a little bit about that Novartis experience? 

Michael- 00:27:30: Yeah, yeah. So it was a similar thing with Genoptix as far as the I think we were getting to the point of the technology. We're like, all right, I'm not sure how much farther this is going to go. And, you know, you can kind of see the way that it's going. And so it made sense at that time. And obviously, you know, Novartis is a big pharmaceutical company and like, all right, cool. This is kind of getting in with the big boys. So I moved over there and I really enjoyed it. I was there for a good five years. And, you know, it was really interesting when I left Genoptix. I'll never forget because one of the cool things about some of these startups is some of the benefits you get. Right. So you can get stock options. And I'm like, of course, if you're leaving the company, you're like, well, obviously I'm leaving because I don't think they're going to be successful. Do you want these stocks options? And they had gone like they originally were like, I don't know, like 10 cents. And shortly before I left, they like went up to ten dollars each. You know, at the time, it was actually relatively a lot. Of course, it wasn't making a lot either. I'm like, I'm going to buy these stupid stock options from ten dollars a piece. Well, fast forward, just you can see the line there. They're not only did Genoptix, you know, survive, they completely pivoted. So they went from a research company to a diagnostic company. Not only did they do that, but they moved from Carmel Valley, which I had to drive to every day, up here to Carlsbad, which is right around the corner from me. And then after all that, a couple of years later, they got bought out by Novartis. It's kind of crazy. After I left. So it's kind of weird how it all comes around. 

Jon - 00:28:51: Wow. 

Michael- 00:28:52: So I could have had stock options, driven less, and then still worked at the same company at the same time. 

Jon - 00:28:57: The crystal ball, only if, only if. And I think too, I love that story because again, just like moving across the country. And I always think about the courage that it took for Mark Zuckerberg to just rename the company Meta and also just like bet on the metaverse. That was major. Like that was a major thing, almost like a bet the company kind of thing. And obviously Meta is a very large company. But that being said is that sometimes a pivot is what needs to happen. It can be like almost like hitting the e-brake and then hitting it like a, you know, a 90 degree turn. And then it can turn into something like that, right? And I think too, because sometimes what happens in startup, the entrepreneurial journey is you almost get too wedded to the thing that you're working on. You're too close to it. You're too close to it and maybe too precious about it. And if you're getting to the end of that with that proverbial candle, if it's too late, the e-break is not going to do anything because you're kind of at the end. But if you try your best to figure out, do I want to stay on this path, like that fork in the road? Sometimes this is what it takes. You'd have to turn into a diagnostics company and then maybe get bought by Novartis.  

Michael- 00:30:15: It's so crazy. 

Jon - 00:30:16: Right? And all that to be said is that it is possible. It is possible. Not every pivot ends up working itself out. Sometimes you can pivot too much. You're like, sometimes you pivot too much. But again, it's kind of like you start building that. Like intuition on like, okay, this is it. This is the right pivot. And like, that is the one way door almost. You're like, oh, we're now going to be a completely different thing. And I don't think we can go back to what Genoptix was before. So your startup life, you're now at Novartis. Can you talk about that experience of joining a larger organization? How was that for you?  

Michael- 00:30:52: I really enjoyed it. I mean, it was much more structured. I mean, the ability to know that, you know, they weren't going to be going out of business or at least I didn't think they were. I mean, they're still there. I'll go out of business any time soon. You know, there's some comfort in that. Of course, we're getting later in our lives. I mean, it's still young. I think I moved over there when I was like maybe 31. But, you know, you start to think about, okay, you know, we're going to have a family soon. And I was there for five years and both my kids were born when I was there. So, you know, that was kind of, you know, somewhat of the thought process. But, you know, I got to learn so much more. I got to get an idea of some of that cross-functional stuff. Right. I get to see more of, you know, hey, what's the marketing that they're doing or, you know, and just a variety of different people. And, of course, especially being in San Diego, everybody that worked there, kind of came from somewhere. Right. And so you have all these connections of, you know, all these other people that have been doing stuff for a while. I mean, and at the time, the CEO of Novartis was Pete Schultz, who's, you know, huge down here in San Diego. And, you know, started up Caliber and was over at Scripps. And so, I mean, I got to meet got to meet him, you know, got to be in his organization. I mean, not that we're best buddies or anything. I met him a couple of times. But, you know, it's one of those things where you start, you know, you're getting associated more and more with some of the people that are in the in the ecosystem. And. And it was when I was at Novartis, too. That's when I went decided to go back and get my MBA at Cal State San Marcos up here. And it was one of those things, you know, just like, okay, good. I've been doing this for a while now. Okay. You know, I wanted to get into the business aspect. Now I want to kind of get into more of the business aspect, maybe outside of the bench. And so in doing that, I did it in evenings and Saturdays. It took me like three years. Wasn't too bad. But, you know, one of the things I mentioned that is because I remember I had to, actually interviewed Pete Schultz at once as part of one of my classwork. I'm like, that's cool. So, you know, I got to really chat with him and like, wow, that's pretty cool. I mean, he's kind of on the podium all the time. Never really talked to him. But, you know, so now now he knew who I was or at least can recognize me. And, you know, I learned in taking those classes. I'm like, wow, I learned so much more of like why we do things here a certain way or why we can't do this or, you know, all this makes sense, you know. And so I really enjoyed that that whole experience. Unfortunately, at the time, I don't know why, but the words is the only company I ever worked at that never paid for schooling. But that's the only time I went back. So I'm like, whatever. 

Jon - 00:33:13: Yeah. Yeah. It's the timing. Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael- 00:33:16: Just the way it worked, the way it worked out. And it was weird. So I was at Novartis for five years. Met some great people there. You know, was on a bunch of projects. We were working on a GPR 119 for diabetes, small molecule drug. And I was doing assay development, cell based culture, assay development to basically test all the other candidates. And, you know, I learned how, you know, I would do this stuff and then when go back to med cam and then they would modify it and come back down. I tested again. You know, so I learned the whole concept of the drug discovery pipeline or at least portions of it. So that was kind of neat. But then, like I said, I went back and got my MBA and I don't know what it is to this day. I don't know when you get your MBA, they put you on a list or something. But almost immediately after I got my degree, I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do with it. I mean, I figured, okay, I still wanted to, kind of meld the two together, the MBA and master's and bachelor's in biology, but how to do that. And shortly thereafter, I graduated, worked out my degree. I got contacted by Millipore at the time, Corning and I think it was GE at the time, which is now Cytiva, all for field application scientist job. 

Jon - 00:34:23: Wow. 

Michael- 00:34:23: And I didn't really know what that was. But when I learned more about it, it was perfect. Right. This is you're a scientist, but you're in the field helping customers, right. Kind of selling stuff, but not really directly. Which is kind of like, all right, cool. That is the mix of what, what I'm looking for. And so that's how I transitioned into that. And of course, I picked Millipore because I'm still here. Iterations down different mergers that we've had nonetheless. And, you know, that was another one of those inflection points, you know, that was very key to me, too. And I will never forget they were looking for somebody that could do luminex assays, which I had never done before. Stem cell experience, which I had never done before. And some molecular values, which I had done before, but wasn't really the same specific that they were. They were doing. So you have to remember, I'm going to go in. I'm supposed to be the expert on this. I'm like oh, you know, I don't know all this. You know, and it's a similar theme. This goes really back to the same thing with the Pennsylvania State Police. I went to the interview. It was the way that I held myself. The stories that I told, the mannerisms that I had, the personality, how I could relate to them that I got hired. Because after the fact, they told me they said, you know, there were two people that we were interviewing that day. There was you and this other gentleman on paper. That guy was perfect. He did everything that we needed him to do from a scientific standpoint. You knew the luminex assays, blah, blah, blah. But when we interviewed the two of you, it was just it flip flop because he just didn't sell himself for what we needed to have somebody in the field or we couldn't see him on the team. Right now, you might not have had all that experience, but we knew you could learn it based on all your background. So, you know, that's something I really want to stress to people listening out there, too, is don't be discouraged if you want a job or something and you don't think you meet those criteria on the job rec. Right. Try it anyway. I mean, it happensfor me twice. I would never guessed, in a million years I would have got hired at the Pennsylvania State Police. And in retrospect, I was surprised at this, too, but it actually worked out. And so then I started with Millipore® and I was a field application scientist and I love the position and did that for them. I think it was ended up being like a year and a half. And I supported all of Southern California, L.A., down here in San Diego, and I think Colorado, Arizona, Wyoming, whatnot, the account managers or the sales reps in those different areas as a specialist for those particular products. So it's kind of cool. So then all of a sudden I got to travel a little bit more. I'm like, oh, I'd never been to Denver before. You know, I'd never been to Laramie, Wyoming before, which I haven't been back. You know, I'd never been to Salt Lake City before. You know, I had to do training and I ended up going to Houston. So like, wow, this is cool. I'd never been to these places. So that started opening up some doors that I really enjoyed, too. And it was nice being part of another larger company. Millipore® at the time wasn't as large as Novartis, but they were still, you know, they were publicly traded, which Novartis was, too, but they were Swiss. Right. So when I come into Millipore®, Millipore® at the time was a U.S. company. So that was kind of cool. I mean, we were on the stock market, you know, and you could get stock options and all this other stuff and you could kind of follow it. Of course, then we got purchased by Merck, KGAA, Darmstadt. And then, you know, we weren't a U.S. company anymore, but that's neither here nor there. But shortly thereafter, like I said, about a year and a half when I was doing the field application scientist, I remember I was doing a Luminex essay or a training. And I think it was at City of Hope. And the district manager, Sean Carnes, at the time called me. He said, hey, you know, one of our San Diego reps, Laura, is actually leaving. You know, she's going to take a different job somewhere. Would you be interested in the sales position? My first thought is, no, I don't want that. You know, I'm like, I don't want to be. And I've actually had this conversation with people I've heard. I don't want to be tied to a number. Basically, I don't want to be responsible. Right. I want to come out here and say, hey, buy this stuff. But if you don't, it doesn't affect me. I don't care. You know what I mean?  

Jon - 00:38:16: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael- 00:38:17: And so I basically I basically said no. And I remember I was having a beer with my good buddy, Ron, who's actually works for Millipore, too. And then he's actually one of my business associates for the line and good friends ever since. We were having a beer one Friday afternoon. And he's like, you should really do it. I'm like, well, I don't know. And I was going through, you know, back and forth. And it was after talking with him that he convinced me that, all right, I should try it. And once again, it's these people, you know, and it's the leaps of faith that you take. And I'm like, all right, I'll do it. You know, and I wasn't dead set against it. I was just like it was just a new thing. Like it was still soon. Right. I'd only been a field scientist for a year now, but I did it. And I was the rep for Millipore, EMD MilliporeSigma at UCSD for almost 10 years. And I was rep of the year for the entire country one year back in 2012. I mean, I always did really well. And I just I mean, I just fell into exactly what I think I was meant to do. And, you know, it took all that pathway. But that's where I got. And it was all about, you know, the relationships, which I talk to our sales reps about all the time. It's the relationships with you, with the customers, which is really indicative of if you follow the pathway that we've been talking about all afternoon here. It's who you know, how you interact with these people and how they interact with you is like, are you personal? There's somebody that you want to talk to. Right. And and so over the 10 years, I built a really, really good personal branding, if you will, that people recognize me as I wasn't the guy just pushing the products. I was I was there if they needed me. Everybody knew that I worked for Millipore, MilliporeSigma. I was fun. And one of my things I'm most famous for. And Kelly, who's my rep down here, still does it is I had my own Pokémon business cards. And so I was playing Pokémon with my son one day. I'm like, hey, this would be a good idea to make business cards. So I did. And, you know, and I made different Pokémon business cards and people would collect them and, you know, they'd come up to the show. So, I mean, it's like, you know, you just do these types of things. So I was known as that and as the Star Wars guy and everything else. And it really, really resonated with the customers. It takes time. You don't become everybody's friend in the year, two years, three years, four years. But after 10 years. I mean, I remember one. I can't remember his name, but he's working over at the Stanford Consortium for Regenerative Medicine. One of our reps came in and was talking to him. And she was telling him that she was working with me and that I had, you know, that I had just picked up that building or whatever. And I remember the guy saying to this day, oh, Michael, he's like he's an institution down here. And I'm like, okay, that sounds great and I'm happy, but you know, I wasn't what I was gearing towards, but the concept that somebody thought of me in that manner, based on what I had developed and who I knew really just resonated with me. I'm like, wow. You know, I didn't realize I had that much, I don't know if influence is the right word, but, or just, you know, visibility that people see me as, you know, like I'm kind of like ingrained in the San Diego, you know, biotech ecosystem and that, and that's kind of cool. But the nice thing is I wasn't, I wasn't seen as like, you know, a salesman. I was seeing this guy in sales, but I'm like, Hey, he's a pretty cool guy to know because he knows this person or he can get that or whatever. So that, that was really cool. And those, those 10 years, I really enjoyed, I fell really into my niche and, and, uh, found what I really wanted to do and did pretty well at it so far, so. 

Jon - 00:41:39: That's freaking awesome. And like, I think it's kind of like this function where you just have to explore. You're kind of like in a jungle, like with a machete, like.  

Michael- 00:41:47: Exactly. 

Jon - 00:41:49: It's cutting through, cutting, cutting through. And then finally you're like, Oh, and it's just-  

Michael- 00:41:53: And the Oasis shows up and you're like, cool. 

Outro - 00:41:58: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Michael Paliotti. In part three, we'll explore his transition from field application scientist to full-time sales, what ultimately convinced him to make the switch, how he developed his own approach to selling, and why relationships are at the heart of everything he does. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for the biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.