Michael Paliotti - MilliporeSigma: Blending Science, Sales, and Side Hustles in Biotech (Part 3/4)

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Intro - 00:00:50: Welcome to The Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, we spoke with Jon Paliotti about his transition into a customer-facing role and the lessons he learned early on in sales. He shared how he built trust with scientists, the difference between academia and industry, and the mindset shift that helped him succeed. If you missed it, be sure to listen to part two. In part three, Jon dives into his full transition into sales, what convinced him to make the leap, how he developed his own approach, and why relationship building remains at the core of his success. Jon also talks about an unexpected passion project, how a casual interest in wine turned into starting his own winery, and the surprising parallels between winemaking, business, and sales. 

Michael - 00:02:01: So Ron and I became good friends. I remember the very first day, you know, before I got into sales, I was still the field scientist. So he was one of the reps in San Diego and I was the field scientist supporting him. And I remember meeting him at Panera Bread for the very first time over in San Marcos. I'm sure he doesn't remember. And chatting with him and really kind of seeing what he was looking for. And I was up at Amgen at a hotel, was doing training up there and he needed something from me for a customer. And I remember I took the time to diligently find all the information and stuff and send it back to him. And I'll never forget, you know, probably never claimed that he said this, but he's like, you know, this is exactly what I'm looking for. You know, we haven't had the specialist were this meticulous. So that really kind of set my tone. I'm like, all right, this is the stuff that I need to do. So anyway, so I knew him all the way since then. And of course, like when I got the sales job, we were colleagues at that point. He had 19121, which is everything down here. I had UCSD and then a third person had like some of the outlying type of things. So we were colleagues for a long time. He's become my best friend. And so we do a lot and he lives in your ocean side. So not too far. So we would do a lot together and I'll never forget. There was one time I was just, I'm always trying to looking to do things, right? And Mira Costa college, a small little community college up here has these courses that you could take, you pay a hundred bucks and you can do, you know, I don't learn Excel or whatever. Well, who wants to learn Excel? They had wine tasting. So I'm like, hey, we want to try to, let's do this. Let's do wine tasting. I'm like, what the hell? It's like 50 bucks. You know, you go on four Thursday nights and try some wine, learn some stuff. Okay. So I'm just like, yeah, let's do it. So we did that. And then we did it again and then we did it again. And then we ended up taking the first course over again. I'm like, that was really cool. And so he got really, really, really interested into it. I mean, I did too. I mean, he got so interested that he ended up getting his business, a wine certificate at SDSU, you know, you name it. And of course he met some people there that we'll get to, which will help to start the winery. And so we were into wine not entirely seriously, but more so than your average person. And so COVID hits in 2020, right? And so we were planning to go to Reno, Nevada to go see the NCAA tournament. I'm like, yeah, $1.50 Bud, Lights and hot dogs, right? So we were planning on going up there and then COVID hit of course. And I'm like, crap, we had to cancel all of our plans and all this stuff. So we were bummed. And then April comes around because it was in March, right? April comes around. And at that time, we didn't really know what was happening. Things started to open up again because we thought it's got to be a couple weeks or whatever, right? Things started to open up again and say, all right, instead of flying to Reno, March, man, it says over, it was canceled, I think. We've always wanted to go to Paso Robles or Paso Robles, depending on who you talk to. Let's go up there. We'll drive up there, spend a couple of days and just do some wine tasting. Sure, let's go do it. So we went up there, did some wine tasting. Maybe we had too much wine because then we decided, hey, we should start our own winery. So we did. It's like, hey, we got the interest and whatnot. And Ron's like, hey, you know, I got my business of wine certificate. SDSU. I know a few people. I know a winemaker down there. He may be interested. Let's see if he might want to join us because, you know, I didn't know how to make wine. He didn't know how to make wine. Now we knew how to drink wine. We had an idea the whole process, but we didn't know the details. And so he said, okay, I'll contact them. We'll go to lunch at LTH local tap house over here next week and we'll see if he's interested. So we all went to lunch, said, here's the plan. We want to start a winery. I mean, eventually what we want to do and is still the plan, you know, have maybe a tasting room here in Carlsbad or Oceanside. People could walk up from the beach, taste wines and whatnot. But we also want to have maybe canned wines, you know, that they can bring on the beach or whatever. This is the grand scheme of things. And he's like, yeah, no, I'm in. He said, but I don't have the financial wherewithal to put into the business. And so we came to a conclusion and say, okay, if you bring your expertise that we need for my winemaking, that can be your contribution in that Ron and I will fund it from this end. And of course, we'll all be equal owners and we'll see how it all works out at the end. So it actually worked out quite well. And so he actually did get his credentials from UC Davis, which were all the big winemakers get their stuff from. So, I mean, he's no slouch by any stretch. And he happens to live up here in San Marcos. And like I said, Ron's in Oceanside. I'm in Vista. If you know northern San Diego County, we're all right here. And we said, okay, the one thing that we do want to do is we want to make good quality wine. You know, anybody can make crap, right? We want it to be good. And we want it to come from an AVA, which is American Viticultural Area, where they get their wines from. An AVA that's well known. Obviously, Napa is huge. Sonoma is huge, but it's just too expensive. So Paso Robles is where we had decided to go with taste. Was the perfect scenario. There was still really good value for grapes there. And what I mean value is high quality AVA grapes, but at prices that were relatively reasonable. So that's what we did. And we started our production up there. And basically what we have is called an alternating proprietorship. You can almost think of it as like it's a CMO, CDMO for wine. 

Jon - 00:07:21: Interesting. 

Michael - 00:07:21: That's kind of weird. So there's there's one company in Paso. They're called Pacific Wine Services, and that's what they do. People want to start wine. Nobody has their own grapes. I mean, because we source them, of course, nobody has their own equipment. But you come in there, you hang your your O2 license, which is your liquor license, figuratively or literally depending. And you do all the work there. They charge you to use things or whatever and move the barrels around or whatever. But you can do it. And our winemaker has a say to what he wants to do. And so he would go up maybe once a month, check on the wine, modify it. We need to be more acidic, whatever. And we're like, okay, whatever. I'll read a check. So we did that for a while. And then, of course, with wine, it takes some time, right? Because there's a harvest every year. So you got to wait till the harvest comes out. And then, of course, if you're doing a red wine, you're going to age it, which we aged 18 months. So there was some time before we started originally to when we actually had a final product. But when we had that final product for the first time, I tell you, that was the best feeling ever to actually have your own wine bottle. It's like we made this. This is our label and all that stuff. It was so great. 

Jon - 00:08:23: That's so cool. 

Michael - 00:08:24: One thing I want to just kind of touch on, though, is it goes back to, once again, who you know. When we went up to Paso originally, that place was the only game in town. If you don't live there and you're not in the business, you just got to go there. And they would nickel and dime us for everything. I mean, if they moved the barrel, it was 50 bucks. If they looked at the barrel, like, with their left eye, it was another $25. You know, if they happened to just not tie their shoes that day, it was another 20 bucks. And so it was just nickel and dime. It's like, this is crazy. And so as we got to know more people in Paso going up there and checking on the wine and just getting in the ecosystem, we found that there are a lot of other small wineries that kind of do this on the side. And like, hey, we have the ability to do this. If you want to do that, come on over. So, you know, but there's nothing that's advertised. You just kind of need to know these people. So we met this one gentleman up there. His name is Hal Schmitt. He used to be a top gun fighter by that, actually. 

Jon - 00:09:19: Oh, wow.  

Michael - 00:09:19:

Really cool guy. And talk about 360. He went to Notre Dame. So I got to meet him. He got the connection there. He used to obviously be down here in San Diego fighter, topped on fire. I mean, he's like the real deal maverick. He still does, I guess, some training on some of the simulators. So we got to meet him. He has a winery called Volatus Wines. His wife, very nice lady. I can't remember her name, but her father was like the drummer in Super Tramp. So it's like, it's all this cool stuff, right? And so he's like, yeah, we can do that over at Midnight Cellars, I make all my wine over there. I basically hang my IP there. You know, if you guys are interested, you can do the same. We are here to support the small makers, we're not here to make a buck. We want to help you be successful. So it was probably maybe six, seven months ago that we moved our facilities in production over there. And we're saving a ton of money. And it's been great. It's such a more of a family atmosphere. But I won't go too deep. But what I'm getting at is it's once again, it's the people and you have to make the effort. We had to make the effort to go up there. I know it was horrible. But we go up there and drink wine at different wineries and talk with people. You got to do it, you got to do. 

Jon - 00:10:28: Yeah, you got to do it. This is a little violin. This world's finest violin just playing for you. 

Michael - 00:10:32: We got to go do networking again. So, 

Jon - 00:10:35: Oh, no. 

Michael - 00:10:36: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you had to make that effort. And it paid off. And I will tell you, this is the best part of owning the winery, though, is you get industry discounts. So we don't have to pay for tastings anywhere. I mean, we tip the guy, of course. So it's like, yeah, but it's actually really cool. So anyway, that kind of comes full circle with that, too. And it kind of goes back to the themes of the networking, who,you know, some of your background that just comes up to to actually have these coincidences. Like I said, like he went to Notre Dame. And so we got to chat about that. And you just never never know. You keep all your options open. Take these leaps of faith. Sometimes sometimes they don't work. But if you keep at it, it can be fun and you can have your own product at the end. So buckle loose minds if anybody wants to buy any. 

Jon - 00:11:21: That's so cool, because I think when I was thinking about I really wanted to talk about your winery, too. Because it's a culmination of these creative experiences, like you're applying your business knowledge. Obviously, there's like a bit of like sales, like sales aspect to it as well. And also kind of like all these relationships that you built. And then we talked about you eventually wanted to have a product with your label on it. And I love how that is like can all get woven together. And something that's like really cool about the winery experience is like any talk about how like, you know, when you go to Paso, you have to actually be a part of it. A contributing member to the community. That's the thing. And I think sometimes, especially when early days when the word networking always gave me the like, oh, I don't really like that. But it's kind of this thing where it's just like it's more of like, just go do good. Like, just go do good. Like, go be helpful. And don't be like transactional about it. Don't like just like go do good. Eventually, the universe will pay you back. And I remember like I think I had a soured like networking event when I was like early days where I was like, oh, everything was like overly transactional. And I was like, this is not my vibe from there. I kind of was like a kind of like PTSD or scar scarred from it. I never want to network again. Like this was a bad experience. But like, I think for anyone out there who is trying to learn this, it's it really is just like be a cool person, be a contributing member, be fun. 

Michael - 00:12:54: And just 

Jon - 00:12:55: put good out there. And eventually it finds its way back. Kind of like, again, the coincidence is like, if you do that in every instance, people talk. Michael’s a rad dude. We worked on these things that might not be relevant for what you're thinking about now. But we worked on these cool projects. You probably want to talk to or something like that. And it always comes and where it doesn't work is when you go in just trying to extract, that never works that you really don't want to do that. Or you kind of just create this transactional element to it. Cause like then it's just, it's, that's that. There's no like longevity to it or sustainability to it. It's just like, and I always think about it from like, I don't know, maybe it's like, this is a, I'm speaking for Jon now and Excedr. Life's too short to not like, just like work with people who you enjoy and you want to help out. And so every time we engage with any stakeholder, it's like, we treat them like friends. It's just like, you're part of the family and we're just going to help each other out. When we need something, I think that goes a long way. Versus just as purely kind of like, I did this for you. So you need to do it for me type situation. It's just like, it never ends well. So now to go back in time, you got that call for Millipore®. And then I guess like, what made you choose Millipore®? Like now Cytiva and you had a couple options here. What was it that really just like, 10 plus years now, like what made you choose Millipore®? 

Michael - 00:14:28: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it goes back to exactly what you were saying. It was as the relatability to the people that I interviewed with and who was going to be my boss at the time. And the team that she described at the culture, which I think that culture still exists in Millipore®, Millipore® Sigma today, which is, you know, big reason why I'm still here. And so I'm like, I can see myself working with these people. I can see myself doing this, you know, the way they explained how they did business at the time, like I said, Millipore® was a smaller company. So big enough that they had the name, but small enough that we still could be really flexible. I wish we were still that flexible nowadays, but you know, that's what it is. But we feel flexible to do a lot of things. And so I really enjoyed that prospect of it. And so, I'm like, I think this would be a cool place. Obviously I've heard of them, you know, everybody's heard of Millipore water and all that stuff, but we're so, so much more. So yeah, that was kind of the main reason. 

Jon - 00:15:23: Yeah. Well, I guess I can describe like what was the Millipore® culture that, you know, you mentioned like the flexibility. What was like that kind of like, oh, that is rad. I'm going to hitch my wagon here. 

Michael - 00:15:33: I found out real quick, like, you know, if things didn't work or you had an idea, you know, people were open like, hey, we should do this differently, right? Or, hey, that's a really good idea. And people could really latch on to that. I'm like, and so we had this more of a fluidity of being more efficient at doing things. And so I really enjoyed that. But I also really enjoyed the culture, which was more like you were saying. It was related, you know, family oriented, more felt like more relationship. You wanted to work with these people. They cared about your development. They worked with you really well. There wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like the Army and the Navy are on the same team, but you're always fighting. We were the specialists and us were working really well together. It was really synergistic relationships. And I liked how that all developed. And from the first time that I had met Ron, who I was supporting at the time, I'm like, oh, this this guy's pretty cool, too. I can see myself working with him, being a specialist with him and the other rep in San Diego. And so I'm like, all right, I like this. And that was what moved me into the Millipore® scheme and keeps me there today for many aspects. 

Jon - 00:16:39: Very cool. And for those who, you know, Millipore® Sigma is a very large organization. But for those who may not be familiar, can you just like set the table for us? Obviously, Millipore® was a smaller outfit back then. But now you guys have a you mentioned kind of like a broader product suite service suite. Can you just set the table on? What is Millipore® Sigma's North Star? And what are the products and services that you guys provide the scientific community with? 

Michael - 00:17:09: Yeah. So what Millipore® Sigma is, we're a large bioscience company, life science company. And we sell reagents, filtration, which goes back to the Millipore® days, chemicals from the Sigma Aldridge days to customers in the research space. So universities, pharma, biotech industry, you name it. The breadth of the portfolio that we have, I think it makes it really exciting for me to work here, continuously to work here. And once again, these are Jon's opinions. Don't reflect the opinions of Millipore® Sigma. Well, I don't by any chance, but I really like the culture there. I think in the way that I have actually interacted with people, it's always been really genuine. And I think there's a caring aspect there that, you know, you don't see a lot. And maybe you'd see him in other companies, but I don't know. All I know is when people have left the company, many times they want to come back. So I've decided, well, might as well just stay. So, yeah, no, it's. They care about the people. I mean, I could say during COVID, we didn't have any layoffs. We didn't have any cuts in salary, all that type of stuff. And I think just that within itself speaks volumes of their appreciation and what they think of the employees. 

Jon - 00:18:19: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think definitely just seeing all of our interactions at Nucleate events, even just like kind of like the more local events, like incubator events and stuff. You guys seem like you're having a lot of fun, too, which is great. 

Michael - 00:18:33: Yeah. And that goes back to a lot of things that we've been talking about. You know, it's the relationship that we have with each other, the respect that we have each other, how we built that rapport. And then, of course, how we built that rapport with with our customers, right? So I like to see myself as well when I was in sales, you know, as a problem solver. I never really, really went in and say, you should buy this because this, this and this. I'm like, you know, what's your problem? Can we help you? That type of thing. And so that's, I think, how I still try to talk to and coach my current team about what we're out there doing is we're not out there selling stuff. We're out there solving problems and there's a synergistic relationship. I mean, research labs don't exist with someone without our products and we don't exist without them. A lot of people appreciate that relationship. So you're going to get some customers like, oh, it's just another vendor. But that's where you differentiate yourself and say, hey, that's fine. Do whatever you need. But here's our solutions and I'm here to help you. If you don't need it, that's fine, too. 

Jon - 00:19:36: I love that approach, too, because I think, again, just like I don't believe this now, but having like before I got sales experience and seeing what good sales and bad sales looks like, like kind of like the same with what the P.I. conversations I had in industry, similar situations like sales. Oh, but it's kind of like. It's kind of this thing where it's just like, you know, exactly what you described. It's like, what are your priorities? What are your problems and how do we work backwards from that and solve that? And for me, it sounds like also for you is that like I'm not going to sell you something if it's not the solution. 

Michael - 00:20:15: Right. 

Jon - 00:20:15: And that's OK. I'm going to try and find you the solution, even if it's like with a competitor, even if it's with somewhere else. 

Michael - 00:20:21: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:20:21: I just want to see you have your problem solved ultimately. That's where I was like, ah, it's not all like this and just like stay away, salesperson. It's more of like, truly, like I'm trying to be helpful here. It would be awesome if what I offer is the solution, but I realized that it is not always the case. There are other things that we might this problem just might not be within our domain. 

Michael - 00:20:43: And you have to be you have to be patient. I mean, and you have to play the long game realizing that hey, I might not be able to solve your solution to your problem today. But a year from now, when you have another problem and you're like, oh, I remember Jon came by and he had something like that. You know, then then they come back to you. Then over time, it's like I had people come to me that like, I have no idea if you have this, but I trust you. Do you like? No, I don't. But, you know, this company does. Or, yes, I do, right? So I think that's one of the things I'm try to instill in my kids now, too, is you got to be patient. If you want to do things right, especially in sales and interacting with other people, you have to build that rapport. You have to have somebody trust you to do what your job is or what you're trying to impart on them, right? And that is to me, that's the most rewarding thing. When I first went into sales, I didn't plan. I'm like, oh, I'm going to play the long game and do all this other stuff. I just kind of did what I thought I would want from somebody coming to me and saying, hey, do you have a problem? And let me help you. And the interesting thing, too, in sales is a lot of times the customers don't even know they have a problem. And you can actually help them by asking them certain questions like, wow, I never even thought about that. Yeah, there is a better way to do that. And you almost become this resource and this epiphany goes off. And that's kind of fun, too. And maybe you don't even have something to help them with that problem that they didn't even know about. You probably do. But helping them be able to bridge that gap, it's just to me, that's the most rewarding thing. It's not making your number. I mean, that's important, of course. But I really enjoy the job of saying, hey, I was able to work with this person to help them solve a problem that they can go on to do greater things, too. That, to me, is the most rewarding thing, not being sales rep of the year and all that other stuff. And that's fine. But that's not why I'm in it. 

Jon - 00:22:36: Yeah. And it's almost like I've always said, likewise, when we talk about it, you've got to be a trusted resource and almost take a consultative approach. 

Michael - 00:22:44: Exactly.

Jon - 00:22:44: Right. And trust is earned, too. Whoever's on the other side has to trust that you're going to do right by them, even if it's not in your economic interests. And because there are plenty of salespeople that don't take that approach. 

Michael - 00:22:59: I know. And that's a shame. But I mean, it's like that really in any group. 

Jon - 00:23:03: Yeah. And this is broadly different ways to go about it. And sometimes sales people, this is where you get the PTSD. That was a bad experience. You know, if you ever bought a car. 

Michael - 00:23:13: Right. And that's what most people think of. That's the bummer. 

Jon - 00:23:15: It's a bummer. Yeah, that's the bummer. And I'm just like, these pressure tactics are really uncomfortable right now. And no one and then you just don't want to go into a car lot, which is unfortunate because it doesn't have to be that way. Like, it definitely does not have to be that way. It just happens to take up a lot of the mind share.

Michael - 00:23:34: And it's funny. You should say that too, bcause like I said, I just picked up the company car yesterday. And it's a very surreal experience. I've obviously done it a few times, but I go and I pick it up and they give me the keys and here you go. Basically, they're like, you know, you're not buying it from us. We don't care. Take the car go, right? It's not like, you know, let me show you all this, right? So it's still like, to me, I'm like, I was thinking to myself, you know, coming from the sales side, I'm like, you know, I get it. You know, there's no financial. But I mean, you know, I could buy a Toyota. Maybe I was my own when I retire, right? And if I had a good experience here, and they're like, I mean, it's kind of weird. They're like, here's a car and you just drive away. You feel like you stole it. But at the same time, it's like you can tell. And I would go to the car lots prior to knowing I was going to order a car. We only have a few choices. And I go there and of course, the guy comes, hey, how can I help you? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, I'm getting a fleet car. I just want to see what the colors are. You know, and it's almost like, oh, don't waste my time and just like turn around. I mean, that actually happened once. I'm like, seriously? Come on. I mean, it just shows, first of all, that the sincerity is not there. And it first it paints, salespeople in a bad light, of course, too. But it's like it's just I don't know. It's just not right. 

Jon - 00:24:46: It's not right. It's not right. And I think, too, anytime I'm thinking about what is the culture that I'm trying to instill is exact opposite of that. It's the exact opposite of that. And I think this is like broadly applicable to all business. It's like, life is long. People remember. And again, this, it works both ways. You never know what, who people know your reputation can proceed you in both directions. Like word can get out that you're a wonderful individual. Word can get out. They're also not a wonder. You're the opposite of a wonderful and it cuts both ways. So it's kind of that thing. You're just like, as long as- 

Michael - 00:25:24: I ask my wife first, I'm okay. 

Jon - 00:25:27: And the thing too, is it's like, it almost takes more effort to not do the kind thing. Like, it's just like, if you need a selfish interest, it's just easier to be nice than it is to not be. So, and you know, the world repays you and the universe repays you. So to get back to your field application scientist, this is your kind of first foray into the commercial aspect. Can you just talk about what it was like for you to work with customers for the first time? 

Michael - 00:25:56: Yeah, it was interesting because I mean, I was on the other side of the bench originally. And now all of a sudden I'm coming in and I'm supposed to be the expert on all this and show them how to use some of this equipment, some of which I just learned myself. And it's just the nature of the business, but I will never forget my very, very first day in the field. I was going to do a Luminex demonstration. They had actually a Luminex instrument and they wanted to get some kits and I'm going to run them with them and show them the proper procedure and all that stuff. And so I'm driving up and it happens to be up in LA. And I'm not really I haven't been in California that long at this point, but I really just never go to LA too much because it's, you know, traffic is just not worth it. So I go up there. I'm like, all right, I'm following. Of course, we don't have at the time there's no iPhones. I mean, I have my I have a BlackBerry, right? So we don't have obviously any type of maps in the cars and all that stuff. So you actually have the Thomas. I don't know if you remember, but the Thomas maps trying to figure out where I'm going and going to LA, you know, like I'm going to the five to six or five. And I'm like, okay, so I ended up going to I had to go to Charles Drew University. And it's in a section of LA that I wasn't familiar with. So I get off. I think it was the one on one or not the one on one, the one ten. And I see these signs and I'm not like I said, once again, I haven't been in LA a lot. Not really familiar with it. I see these signs that say Compton Watts District. I'm like, oh, I'm familiar with those areas. Where am I going, right? And so I go to Charles Drew and it's basically in this section. And they're an affiliate with UCLA. I think Harbor Medical Center, something to do with that. And so my very first experience is like I'm going through these metal detectors. Charles Drew of this place I've never heard in Compton, California. I'm like, what have I got myself into? 

Jon - 00:27:47: Right. But it was 

Michael - 00:27:48: a really good experience. I really enjoyed the very first day I was there. The account manager who had the account met me there. And it was really fun to just help the customer do what they needed to do. They had this new technology. They were excited about it, especially there because they didn't have a lot of funding. So this was kind of a big deal. And I was there showing them, you know, this is these are the capabilities of it. Let me help you do this. And I won't forget this either. When we were there. So the the Luminex instrumentation basically, it's a it's almost flow based well it is flow based and it has a 96 well plate and it sucks up from the individual plate basically does it's eliza's not a bead, okay. Well, there's a platform, obviously, that moves the plate around so that the probe can go down into the different wells. Well, we were working on everything. And when we got to go to read the sample, the platform wasn't working. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is my first day. And we're doing this stuff. And I'm like, the plate's not going to stay that good anymore. It's the only kit that they got. Now we can't read it. What do we do? And so I take the plate. I'm like, all right, never fear. I said, I'll drive this to our Temecula site. And I did. And I'll run the plate over there. I know we have Luminex assays or Luminex instrumentation over there. So I take the plate, put it on ice, drive down because going to Riverside, Temecula, it's not really the easiest place. So you got to kind of take the, I think it's the 91. And that's horrible. Anyway, so it's like late at night. I end up at our Temecula facility. And it's like nine o'clock at night. And I'm like running the plates. I'm like, this is my first day. And I'm like, it's kind of cool because I'm helping them out. You know, I'm going the extra mile. And I don't mind. But I'm like, if this is like this every day, I'm going to be dead in like six months.  

Jon - 00:29:25: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael - 00:29:26: It's crazy. But, you know, after I had the data and I sent it to them, that was just kind of what it was all worth it, right? You know, not only did I help them solve the problem. I'm not saying, you know, putting myself on a pedestal and say, look at me. I did all that. But I mean, I found a solution. And some of the solution was really extreme, taking the plate and actually having to go run it. But I helped them really get what they needed to know. And that was really rewarding. And so, you know, the first day, even though it was a little bit harrowing, it was at the same time really a good experience for me to see, oh, wow, this is what it can be about. And this is how I can actually really help people with the research. 

Jon - 00:30:03: I love that. And there's a couple elements that really stood out to me. One of my favorite books is the book, Unreasonable Hospitality, which is the 11 Madison Park folks in New York, the super fancy, like three Michelin star restaurant. And they just talk about doing that extra mile being so pivotal. When you go to a restaurant and have a fantastic service experience, like it just like is seared in your memory. But you just remember and people remember how you make them feel. Like they don't ultimately remember what you, they don't remember what you did. Like it is goes into the annals of time is how they feel that they remember and going that extra mile and having those moments of like making someone feel like they're cared for and actually achieving what they want to achieve is what makes it all. And I'm sure they will remember that you did that, right? 

Michael - 00:30:56: They're never going to forget that, right? 

Jon - 00:30:57: Yeah. And, and if you take a very hard-nosed business approach to it, they're, you know, it's like, that's not scalable, right? But it's those things where people, you it. And again, you show that you're going to do right by them, that they always come back. It's kind of like going to a restaurant. Like when, you know, like I love going back to the restaurants where I feel like, I'm having a good time and people are treating me nice. And I know the people, I know the waitstaff. I'm like, we're like friends here. And those are the moments, you know, I always remember in that book, I think they were talking about how someone wanted a, like a New York, like a halal cart. Like they're like, oh, it's our last day in New York. We want to go. We, we didn't get a chance to get halal. And 11 Madison Park was like, well, you know, they're like, we don't have a wall cart, but they went out, went and got halal and basically just like got it for them before they jumped on their plane. And that moment was like super memorable. They're like, oh, they went out of their way to go do this just because, and they didn't say that to the staff. They just were talking amongst themselves and they just heard it. And they were just like, wait a second and he's like, just ran out, bolted, got it. 

Michael - 00:32:06: I love that. 

Jon - 00:32:07: That type of stuff, though, again, it's kind of this breadth of domain. You can carry that into whatever domain you're in. It could be like you going driving to Temecula, running the samples to get them the data that they needed. And I think designing and doing that type of stuff is always really important, regardless how big or small your company is and regardless of what the industry is. At least what I find is those little moments that really go the distance. And so you did a year, year and a half of being a field application scientist. And then you got the recommendation by your friend. It was Ron who, Ron was like, okay, maybe just like, you know, you would give a shot for, you know, just like. Not being a field application scientist and becoming an actual, just like full-time, you know, sales account manager. Can you talk a little bit about that transition and what it was like for you?  

Michael - 00:32:59: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, it goes back to the original rationale, why, or at least in my mind, I didn't want to make that transition was because of that number, right. You know, and I was more of like the intangible stuff. I'm like, can I make the number? Is that going to change the way that I do things? And it didn't, you know, the number was, it's not necessarily going to come naturally. I mean, you're going to have to work hard, but to me, it was always a secondary stuff. It was like, I needed to make a name for myself. I needed to help people. I wanted to be there on campus. And so one of the first things I started doing is I did these cart shows and I just did them at every building. And so I had this cart, had a few pieces of literature, maybe some of the newer products on there, and then some donuts and coffee. And I'd come by and said, hey guys, if you have any minute, I got donuts, coffee out here, some new stuff, just stop by, you know, no problem. And then the organic thing that happened, which was beautiful, which really started this whole, you know, relationship trend for me is people would come out and it was like the water cooler. We would just start chatting and I would chat about stuff. There'd be times I go to UCSD, and I wouldn't, I'd be there all day talking with people. And I probably never even talked about products, but you know what? Those are some of the most successful days because they know that when I came back, I was like, hey, how was your vacation? Or how are the kids are right now? Or I'm like, you know, have you seen the new Star Wars trailer that just dropped? I'm like, Oh, I know this is really cool, right? So, that type of stuff, right? And if they need something, believe me, they're going to tell you, right? And we can just step back and say, okay, hey, oh, by the way you guys interested in whatever you have in any issues, you know, we'd have to. And they're going to be much more inclined to be like, let's try that out. You know, I never thought about that, but you know, as long as you're here and we like you and et cetera, et cetera.  

Jon - 00:34:36: Yeah.  

Michael - 00:34:36: Let's try it out. You never know. And so it's those types of things, like I said, it's the long-term, but to me, it's the fun part. I mean, that's what I, that's what I liked about the job. If you ask me, like, did you like selling? I'm like, well, not like, you know, talking about product necessarily, or bells and whistles. I liked chatting with people and it could be about nothing. It could be about the equipment, you name it. There was one time I remember I was a rep for J&J here in San Diego, and we had gone in to talk with them about their Luminex instrumentation. I was the rep. So I wasn't the field scientist anymore, but we brought in the field scientists and we're doing basically a lunch and learn. So I remember we're in this conference room and they're going over all this. And so the focus of the day is this. And so we're chatting and they're done with the lunch and learn. And then I start talking with some other people just shooting the breeze. And I'm a big Star Wars fan. And I don't know if you know this, although I haven't done it in a while, but I'm part of the 501st Legion, which is the costuming group for Star Wars, right? So you have to have screen accurate costumes. You have to be approved all that. So when you see like Star Wars days at Petco Park or weddings that's usually this group. And so I just got chatting with them about that. And they were Star Wars fans. I said, oh, I'm in the group and they're doing this like, oh, my God, did you go do that? And so we just built this rapport. And I said, hey, by the way, I know you're talking about the Luminex stuff and you're using some cell culture media, if you will. That's what you're testing. And the answer is, so you guys do a lot of cell culture. Do you have you know, do you have to count yourselves? They're like, yeah, we do it, you know, manual. Like, hey, you know what? We actually have a automated cell counter that you might be interested in. You know, tie in with this, like, oh, that's cool. And so they ended up like, yeah, come bring it in. We'll demo it. And they ended up buying it. And so the end result of them buying that instrument was not really why I initially talked with him. It was just developed organically because we had a common interest and we just were shooting the breeze. I said, oh, by the way, in relation to what you're doing, maybe there's something else that I can help you with, right? And that's the way it worked. And so I remember that. I remember that vividly. And I kind of use that as a baseline of like when I'm chatting with people sometimes I sit back. I'm like, okay, am I doing that type of thing or am I doing more of like, hey, you know, these are the bells and whistles. And sometimes I change because you kind of get caught up in that. Sometimes just sit back and say, hey, okay, no, no worries. And sometimes change the subject or just kind of just hold off, listen to them more and kind of go from there. So it's a roundabout way to do things. And, you know, we're always in sales like about the number, the number, the number. But, you know, I really try to coach my team is it's what you do. And it's how you do it, you know, and the number will come and it's the effort you're going to put in. And so one of the things I really like them to do is we keep a list of all the events that we do, because I think it's I personally am all about the intangibles. It's how you make the person feel if you and how you promote yourself and therefore promote your products. People buy from people that they like, right? 

Jon - 00:37:42: Yeah. 

Michael - 00:37:42: And they might buy stuff that they don't even need or don't even want if they like you, right? So, I mean, I'm not saying that they should or shouldn't. But like you said, I mean, it's like somebody coming door to door. If you don't know them, whatever, you know, you're not going to buy the Girl Scout cookies. But if you are really good friends with the family down there and you're like, oh, I really like those guys, you know, you buy the cookies. I'm like, I don't want them. You know, they're good. But I don't need to eat the cookies. So that takes time and that takes effort. But, you know, if you do all those things and you do them right, like you said, good things will happen. And I've been successful in sales and it's because of that. It hasn't because I've always focused on the number. I mean, it's there, but it's always really been. And probably my boss wouldn't want to hear that, but it's kind of been secondary. I'm like, that'll come. I know I got to get there, but I'm not going to get there if I keep saying you need to buy this. You need to buy this. No, I have to make sure that people are taken care of and they want to buy it or they need it. Because at the end of the day, I still have to go home. And if somebody bought something and I'm like, oh, God, I don't want to go back in that lab because they're finding out it's going to be a real piece of junk. And you never, ever get the worst. And you want to go back and like, hey, I'll go back any day I support the product to support what I told you. And if it's working for you, cool. And if it's not, we'll make it right.  

Jon - 00:38:55: Exactly. Exactly. Standing by that is like critically important, too. And I think we're stylistically like that, too, where it's one is long game, but two is also kind of like contextual and situational, too. Some people are very feature focused. And like, that's cool. If you want to talk features, I'll talk features with you. That's awesome. But sometimes people don't want it. Like exactly what you said. And that's cool. Because I also like a lot for me. Kind of the thing that I'm very passionate about outside of Excedr is like food and wine. Like, that's just what my wife and I kind of like do in our spare time. And so always I'm just like, have you tried this restaurant? Have you tried that restaurant? Or do you have any recommendations for me? Because I'm always. And I was actually, as I was thinking about, I think, I think you said it was, it was Ron or one of your co-founders at your winery who lives in Oceanside. And every time I think about Oceanside, I always think about Tanner's, the Smashburger place, which is so good. Like my wife's family lives in Oceanside. So whenever we go. 

Michael - 00:39:50: Oh, okay. 

Jon - 00:39:51: I'm like, can we go to Tanner's, please? Like, it is so freaking good. I digress. But yeah, I think it's kind of this thing. It's like one, it's like situational awareness, but also know who you're talking to. Like sometimes, sometimes they're like, no, I don't want to hear any of this. I just want to know exactly what this thing does. Like, that's totally cool.  

Michael - 00:40:09: I can do that too. Like we can talk about that.

Outro - 00:40:14: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast with Jon Paliotti. Be sure to tune in for Part Four, where we will explore the differences between working with large pharma, academia, and emerging biotech companies, and how Jon tailors his approach to each. He also shares his perspective on leadership, how he transitioned from sales into management, what he's learned about coaching a team, and why empathy is key to being an effective leader. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your friends. See you next time. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.