Michael Paliotti - MilliporeSigma: Master Biotech Sales & Build High-Performance Teams (Part 4/4)

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Intro - 00:00:50: Welcome to the Biotech Startups Podcast by Excedr. Join us as we speak with first-time founders, serial entrepreneurs, and experienced investors about the challenges and triumphs of running a biotech startup from pre-seed to IPO with your host, Jon Chee. In our last episode, we spoke with Michael Paliotti about his transition into full-time sales, what convinced him to make the leap, how he developed his own approach, and why relationship building remains at the core of his success. He also shared how his passion for wine led him to starting his own winery and the unexpected business lessons that came from it. If you missed it, be sure to listen to Part 3. In Part 4, Michael talks about the key differences in working with academia, large pharma, and emerging biotech companies, explaining how each requires a unique approach. He also shares insights into leadership, his transition into management, and how he coaches his team to focus on relationships over transactions. Michael reflects on what makes a great sales leader, the importance of long-term thinking in business, and why investing in people, whether customers, colleagues, or team members, pays off in the end. 

Jon - 00:02:11: And you talked about like, you know, working J&J and, you know, you had, you know, J&J, obviously, large pharma. And then, you know, when, you know, working with some academics as well, can you talk about like, what's the differences and kind of key considerations when it comes to working with these different outfits, whether it's academics? Large pharma, nonprofits, smaller companies, incubators, like how does the approach change? 

Michael - 00:02:34: Yeah, no, it's definitely a different tactic and a different sale based on the markets that you're looking at. So when I first started with Millipore, we had, like I said, zip codes. And so I had Big pharma, J&J, Novartis, where I used to work, but also at UCSD. And then I had a lot of the small biotechs that you would pass by going to a lot of these different companies. And so, you know, academics was kind of my thing because I could walk. I mean, this is way back before COVID things changed so much, but I could walk the halls and just shoot the breeze. And every single lab's a new customer and stop in here and here. And so it was more of a laid back approach, more of a social approach, that type of thing. I mean, it depended on the lab sometimes. But like you said, you really needed to know your audience. Pharma, you're not going to just walk into Pfizer and be like, hey, guys, what's going on? I mean, that's just not going to happen. Right. So it's more of a roundabout way. It's like trying to build the relationships maybe with procurement or for a few end users reaching out. It's more intangible. Right. You know, trying to get responses. And then, you know, taking those individual responses and building off of that and asking for a referral. Do you know somebody in that department that might be able to help in that? You need that person. You know, somebody here. Right. And so it's a lot slower. But the thing that's different is, you know, the sales are different, too. Right. So academics, at least from our product standpoint, it's a lot of little stuff. You know, three hundred dollars here, three hundred dollars. Of course, it adds up. Where pharma, you're finding out it can be some of the larger project based stuff and that, you know, you have to actually maybe manage that more, you know, three hundred dollars of its back order. I mean, you're going to try to get it to them. But at the end of the day. It's 300 bucks. Now, if they need, you know, a hundred thousand dollars worth of plates and you're trying to make sure they come out, you know, get them at the right time. You're talking with Germany where they're made or wherever they're made in Ireland, you know, that we have the right lots coming in, all that type of stuff. So it's a different type of not only sale, but managing of the account itself. And there's a lot more reward there, too. And you'll notice, of course, in the heydays, price wasn't as big of a deal. I'd go to UCSD and somebody say, hey, we can buy your Stericups through this other distributor literally for like two dollars less. They tell me I'm like, see, two dollars. I mean, fine. Here's two dollars. 

Jon - 00:04:41: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Michael - 00:04:43: I mean, it would be I would have people say that. I'm like, I'm like, okay, where, you know, pharma is like, hey, we don't care. They care about the price, but we need this. Right. We need to get this done. We need this product. We're not going to sit there and haggle over the price. If you give us a number that seems reasonable, fine. We're going to run with it. And that was the beauty, too, is like I felt when I was doing and I had that and then the small biotechs, which is even a different type of sell, which we can chat about, too. I felt more like a mutual fund than really a stock. Right. When I just had UCSD later on, that's pretty much all I had. It's like you live and die by that. And it's like one stock. It can go through the roof or it can just be, you know, drop and it's nothing you can do about it. I mean, in the greater scheme. But when you had a mishmash of different types of accounts, different sizes of accounts, I liked it so much better because there was one account in Rancho Bernardo that did buy a lot of these plates are multi-screen plates or filter 96 filter plates. And at the time, if I needed to get closer to my number, I would just call them up and say, hey, can you guys take an extra X number of plates? And they're like, yeah, here's a PO for like seventy five thousand dollars. Cool. You know, that was kind of neat. And you kind of had to know the people. You had to build a relationship there, too, but you had to know your customers and, you know, know who you could go to, the type of sales, and what they're looking for. And then small biotechs, you know, it's kind of a mishmash between the two. You're not going to walk in there and walk the halls. But some of the times they're so small, you kind of just knock in. You walk in, you know, to the small little biotech, which is right next door to a brewery or something. Right. Because they're in one of these industrial parks or maybe something else, a nail salon and say, hey, I'm, you know, you're a MilliporeSigma rep. You know, just stop them by. And a lot of times like, oh, my God, I've never seen the rep before. You know, meanwhile, most people are like, get the hell out. And you're like- 

Jon - 00:06:28: Yeah. 

Michael - 00:06:28: And they're like, I'm so happy. And, you know, and that's really cool, too, because like now they know that if they need something, this guy stopped by. Let's try it with him. And so that's actually something we're kind of really trying to do more of, I think, in this newer atmosphere. At least I'm trying to think about it. It's definitely different ways you have to look at it. But it's got these got their own challenges, but they should have their own rewards as well. 

Jon - 00:06:52: Absolutely. And I think about something that's interesting, at least for on the exterior side, is like. The big name brands like UC Berkeley gets a lot of attention because it's UC Berkeley. Large pharma gets a lot of attention because it's large pharma. But I think, you know, you talk about emerging companies. Because they're not at scale, the account isn't that big. So they don't get like the kind of attention that, you know, a kind of a Berkeley might demand. And for us, because we purchased so much equipment, that's just what we do. What ultimately happens is like we give them kind of like that white glove service that a larger institution might get, like who buys a lot of things. And that's an awesome thing that you can provide for the younger companies because like it's also, despite not being a large, you know, a large organization yet, you can have an outsized impact.  

Michael - 00:07:45: 100%. 

Jon - 00:07:45: It's harder to move the needle on a very large, like Lawrence Berkeley Lab or large pharma. Not to say that you can't, but it's just like, it takes a lot to move it. Whereas I love seeing the impact of that unreasonable hospitality, that white glove service, and just being there and actually moving the needle substantially for someone who's doing cutting edge work is always fulfilling for me. And that's why we love our folks in academia. We love our folks in large pharma, but I just like, I love seeing how much we can move the needle for the emerging folks and hopefully they can become the large organization eventually. 

Michael - 00:08:24: And it's a very promiscuous ecosystem, too. Right. So, you know, you might not sometimes like, why am I talking with these three people here? Right. You know, and that company goes under. But all of a sudden, that one guy that you knew there is the CEO of this other company. Right. And all of a sudden you have an in over there and that company takes off or whatever. So you never really you never really know because it is so ingrained and intermixed. And and you're and you're right. I mean, you know, you see a lot of these little companies that have never bought anything. All of a sudden they're buying ten thousand dollars worth of stuff. And you're like, wow, that's there's a good feeling about that. Not only for your own accomplishment, but obviously they're you know, you're helping them get what they need. And you multiply that by, you know, a couple hundred of them down here and that that can add up. And you're right. That can move the needle. And that's kind of fun as opposed to, you know, chipping away at UCSD. I'm like, two dollars again. I mean, yeah, 

Jon - 00:09:11: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you and you and you lived you live that right. Cellomics, Genoptix. Right. You end up in Novartis. Genoptix ends up being a part of Novartis. 

Michael - 00:09:24: Yeah. 

Jon - 00:09:25: It's almost like a circulatory system. And this is this applies outside of like life sciences, too. It happens in like software technology, too. Like you you start a company. It may not pan out. You go to the other company and you join them and you carry all that accretive experience there. And I think that's the beauty of like the startup community. And just like what- And I think it's a uniquely American kind of not not to say other countries don't do it. But like that whole kind of like first attempt. What do you say is first? 

Michael - 00:09:54: Attempt in learning. 

Jon - 00:09:56: In learning. Right. It's kind of that. Right. It's the first attempt in learning it. But in a startup, right. It's like, we're try our best here, and it might not work out. But, eventually you, look, you take those lessons with you to whatever company, and you just never know. Like again, you never know, no you ended up in a bar desk. Like who would have thunk? And also like from Pittsburgh to like California who would have thunk? And I love that. And something too that also stood out to me as well, is that you know, like I said, like anyone who comes into the Excedr fold, whether it's a employee, an external party from like, whether it be a partnership or a vendor. And I always think about it as like, this is these are all like joint stakeholders part of the family, and I've been working with a lot of our manufacturing partners for a very, very long time now. The story that's like coming to my head, that just reminds me, it was like, I understand on the other side that, some of our manufacturers have numbers to hit too. Right? And sometimes they're like, can we get a piece of equipment in before your end? I'm like let's do it, like, like, like let's do it. But, they've repaid in other ways, like they're like other times, for example like, one of our clients needed the equipment in, ASAP. And like ASAP. And they're like, Oh, Jon helped me out in a pinch there. We're just going to get that new unit off the dock. Like there was a queue. 

Michael - 00:11:15: Yeah.  

Jon - 00:11:15: There was a queue and they're like, well, Jon helped that time. Let's see if we can help them back. And there's like, we're like, the lab urgently urgently needs this box. And there's like, boom! Out, like next day overnighted shipped in the box with there. I was like, this is awesome. Like I didn't like, I didn't like expect it of them. I didn't like, I wasn't like, you need to like, if I, if I need this now, you need to get it to me now. It was never that thing, but it was just like, Hey, like, could you help out? And they're like, yeah, of course. And so that's the thing where it's kind of like this, just two way street every time, just like you just continue to, you know, build that relationship. And I think it pays you back in just ways that you can never imagine. So now you're starting to get your kind of like experience. You're building up your kind of sales acumen. Can you talk a little bit about when you started managing and managing larger and larger teams? Can you talk about what was that experience like? I'm remembering back to your formative experience. I think it was at Pittsburgh where your manager was an empathetic leader and was like, I'm not going to make you do the 3AMs 100%. I'll do it myself too. Can you just talk a little bit about how do you approach now going from an actual sales account manager to an actual manager of FTEs? 

Michael - 00:12:26: Yeah. So it was interesting time that it happened. So it was actually April of 2020. So it was during COVID. So my current manager, he's still with the company. He went to our process solutions side and he just was looking for something different. And, you know, he'd kind of been grooming me and he knew that was my interest. And, you know, as an individual contributor on the team, you know, I'd always taken extra steps to learn what I could. And so it was the natural progression that, you know, it would be me, although it wasn't just like that. I mean, he went through the whole process and whatnot. But when I actually, you know, took the helm, it was interesting because first of all, they sound like, oh, you're a manager now and here's manager training, right? It's like, here's the team. And you think, you know, because you've been on the team, but just because you're an individual contributor who generally people that get promoted or do well doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be a good manager, right? And so you compound that with the fact is now you're actually managing who were your peers right before that. And so how do you actually, you know, transition that and how do you, you know, get their buy-in? I mean, they all like you, but all of a sudden now you're in a different, you know, level, at least from a hierarchical standpoint in the company where there is a certain, you know, expectation on each side that's different now when before you were peers. So how do you get their buy-in and all that? And I think for me is I just continue to do with the team as I did with the customers is it's all about the relationship that I had with them and knowing that I'm there. I think my job is the same thing. I'm there to help solve their problems. I trust each and every one of them to do their jobs. If you hire the right people, then you really shouldn't have to worry about that. I'm not worried about, oh, are you out there or whatnot? I never question that. I mean, you know, I just have full faith in them. And if I don't, if they aren't, then it's my fault because either I didn't coach them right or I didn't hire the right person. So the micromanaging stuff is just out the window. I'm like, I just, well, it's not that I don't care, but I'm like, you're doing it. Fine. Do your thing. I'll do mine. And I see my position as, you know, removing any barriers that they might have to do their job appropriately, you know, cascading the appropriate information down and then being there to, you know, help them solve problems or be a resource of like, hey, I've been with a company for 17 years now. Contact this person or contact that person and then coach them based on my experience of what we've been chatting about for, you know, the last couple hours of like, here's how I would approach this. Or, you know, I mean, you can do it anyway. But this is just kind of what's worked for me. And I think people really appreciate that. And they also appreciate the empathy, knowing that irrespective of how long I've been in this position, I always try to remember I was right there and how would I look at this? And I think that's the one thing that it's very difficult to do. I think I've successfully been able to do it. But you have to cognizantly remind yourself all the time, you know, hey, remember, you were there or whatnot. And I feel like that thought process or that feeling shouldn't change from day one when I took the job and like, holy crap, versus 10 years down the road. I should still feel the same way. And I try to live that every day. And I think the team really does appreciate it. I mean, I have lost very few people over the five years that I've done this. And actually the best, well, all of them, except for one, have actually stayed with the company, this development thing, which is actually a good thing. And I find that knowing where to draw the line from a personal standpoint and a professional standpoint is important, but also realizing that they're all people. And so they all have, you know, individual problem, you know, relationship problems or their dogs died or whatever. Right. You know, and to understand that, I think that goes a long way because that's how I would want to be treated. You know, someone will come to me like, oh, you know, my dog's sick or something like that. That's fine. Hey, don't worry about it. You know, we'll take care of it. And it's kind of like what you're saying. Like, hey, if you can't make it, I get it because that's like your child and that's important to them. And I'm going to be like, I don't care about your dog coming to your mouth. You know, and to me, that just makes sense. And so it's just like the customers. They see that and they appreciate that. And they're going to go the extra mile for you. That's not why I'm doing it, but they're going to go the extra mile for you as well. Right. And I know this one individual who happened to be this situation. You know, she's always telling me she's like, I'm you know, I'm going to do it for and I can say she because most of my team is women. Actually, there's only one guy in me. You know, she's like, oh, I always want to make you look good. And I'm like, I'm like, you don't have to. I'm like, I'm not really too concerned about that or too concerned about this. I said, I just want to help you. You know, but she's like, no, I really appreciate it. And so I'm like, okay, cool. I mean, you know, and I appreciate that, too. So it goes, you know, goes both ways. And the relationship there, it just strengthens as well. And you just become closer not only as individual people, but, you know, as team members. I see myself as I, and I like to think a lot of people like a lot of managers like to see themselves like this. But I actually truly believe I am as a as a player coach. I mean, I really try to do what I can to be in the trenches as much as I can. I'm out on the field. Like I told you earlier, I'm going to be in the Bay Area about three weeks in a row coming up here. Just, you know, going to shows, going to a variety of different things and with the individual reps, because, I mean, I enjoy that part, too. But unfortunately, there's a lot of back end stuff that I have, unfortunately, but, you know, deal with it kind of limits me to being able to do some of that stuff. But that's okay, because, you know, that's part of my job of alleviating some of the issues that they may have or making their lives their lives easier. So I hope knock on wood that I've done that so far. So I think I've gotten good, good results.  

Jon - 00:18:09: I love that. And it's kind of, you're like leading from the front, which I think is important. Like, rather than just like, there are other managerial styles where it is the micromanaging is barking, marching orders and take it or leave it, which I don't believe in. Like, it's not my style. There are plenty of companies where that is the style and they're successful as well, but it's just a different stylistic thing. But I think it's really important because it reminds you of back when your early lab experience where you're talking about just like. Doing wet lab stuff where like pre kits where you're like, you just know intimately to the detail of like what it is that goes into this thing. And I think honestly, the devil is in the details. And I think great leaders can sweat the details, but also like zoom out. And by being able to sweat the details, one, you can actually contribute to the conversation more. Like it's hard to like lead when you just like have no idea what this thing is or what the thing does. And also at the same time, it's hard to be empathetic if you've never lived it. And so always like, I love that you're just talking about just like constantly reminding yourself like. I was there facing similar things. And that goes a long way because I still remember doing cold calls. Like, it's hard. Like, it is very hard. So versus just like, you know, just forgetting what it was like to do cold calls and just like hit the number. And no, that's not inspiring, nor is it helpful. Like, it's like, and also I love that, you know, how you were saying that the approach when it comes to relationships, just like the external relationships, too. It's like, know your audience. Some people are introverted. Some people are extroverted. Some people are super quantitative and some people are not. It's kind of like you got to tailor the approach or else it's going to fall on deaf ears. Like for me, like, again, it's like, I'm a visual learner. Can we put this into like something visual so I can actually stick? Please don't give me a mathematical formula because like this is not going to stick. So I love that approach. And, you know, now like you've been doing this in your, you know, 17 years in, as you're looking forward. For the next one year, two years, like what's in store for you and what's in store for your team?  

Michael - 00:20:20: Yeah. I mean, people ask me, what are your aspirations? And I basically say, I have absolutely no aspirations. I say that comically, though, because I enjoy what I'm doing right now. I didn't take the managerial position to be one more rung up on the corporate ladder. I took it because this is what I thought I would enjoy. And I do enjoy doing, you know, helping people, coaching people with the best experience that we've been talking about, you know, trying to help develop people. And that's what I really enjoy is I love to see people develop in the sales profession and go on and do even, even greater things. Two of my reps right now were former sales associates of mine in San Diego. Right. So it's nice to see that, you know, them move up. And then one of them has been rep of the year and the other one, for all practical purposes, should have been rep of the year. And it's just was probably known throughout the company from everybody. So just to see, you know, those just using those two individuals as examples from really kind of just starting out, even with me, it's very rewarding. And so I really like the position that I'm in. And I would like to continue to do that for, the next coming years or if you will, to kind of, you know, continue to develop people and just impart my knowledge. And that's that's actually, you know, why I love working with Nucleate. Like I told you earlier today, later on this evening, I'm doing a webinar with the Arizona chapter. And it's the same. It's similarly they want to know, you know, hey, what are some alternative career paths for people that are doing science? And I really like to impart my knowledge about like, hey, here's different ways to do things. And, you know, there are a couple of people in that particular chapter of Nucleate that I, that I mentor. I chat with them probably once a month or once every other. And they kind of bring me questions and whatnot. And I don't do it so I can put venture on my resume. I do it because I really like talking with them. I really like to see how they develop. And I really like to see some of these epiphanies like, wow, that's a different way to look at things. Or this is a different way of doing things. Or, you know, we're going to chat with the city of Phoenix. We're trying to get some money for, you know, how would you this is how I would approach it. I'm like, well, okay, that's cool. But I would do it this way. I'm like, oh, wow, that's great. You know, and then they go and do it. It's like that worked really well. And so that's really kind of like, you know, the things that really drive me. I'm like, I really like that. So I think about that with with the team that I have now. You're kind of a victim of your own success, right? If you develop these people, eventually they're going to move on. But, you know, that's great because I am much like the customers. I am helping these people attain their goals. You know, if it doesn't fit my my needs at the at the moment and I'm actually losing good people because of that, so be it. But that's the way it is. And that's a big reason why I do this. And so I continue to see myself doing that in the near future. And, you know, hopefully, I mean, down the road, I'm not sure if anything lies for doing that on a more permanent, like consultative basis. Who knows? Right. But I could see that potentially being something that I could do in the waning years of my career. Say, okay, I've had enough of the, you know, the streets, but maybe I can still use this knowledge from a coaching standpoint, from a third party or something like that. 

Jon - 00:23:23: That's awesome. And I think too, like I, it is the same reason that I love working with Nucleate as well. It's like seeing that light bulb go off. And then seeing them get results just like off of just like helping them because they don't know what they don't know. And this is not just Nuclea people. It's like anyone who might be earlier or who may not have that experience yet. And something, too, about you and your team and the longevity of your team and developing your team, too, is that. We take this really long-term kind of mindset around it. The knowledge just compounds, like the institutional knowledge starts to compound. And so, you know, versus like, I think something that in San Francisco, we see it all the time with like software. There's like people stay like one year here, one year here, one year here, one year here. And you kind of lose the institutional knowledge. 

Michael - 00:24:13: 100%. 

Jon - 00:24:14: Versus, you know, I love seeing teams that have stuck together for a very, very long time. And the amount of just like knowledge you accumulate, like you start going parabolic. You just become like on the out years, just like you just start really, really honing the craft, which is great to see. And also too, with an institution as large as MilliporeSigma, just knowing all of the like the internal stakeholders, that takes time. Like that takes time. It's not just like, you can't just like, even if it's in a spreadsheet, like this person's responsible for this, this person's, responsible for that. It's not the same as like living it and actually being able to piece it and actually getting things done and being able to pull in the right people and putting the right people on the bus. So I love hearing that that's your approach and philosophy. Michael, like you've been so generous with your time and I'm learning a lot and having a lot of fun. But in the traditional closing fashion for the podcast, we have two questions. First, would you like to give any shout outs to anyone who supported you along the way? 

Michael - 00:25:17: I definitely like to, you know, to thank the proverbial my parents. I mean, you know, that I see shaped me for the person I am today. I mean, I had a lot of mentors throughout my entire career, but I'd really like to thank my wife, too, because she's been there for most of it. And it's been a really good support for me, support system the whole time. Like I said, when I went back to get my MBA happened to be the time that both kids were being born. So they were like, you know, two years old and newborn. And here I'm leaving to go off, you know, get my MBA, which is something that I really had to do right. But I wanted to. So, you know, she's always supported me with all that. So I think she's my biggest fan and definitely her the most. 

Jon - 00:25:55: Yeah, absolutely. I got to say the same for my wife too. I tell this story and probably people are getting tired of hearing it, but early days at Excedr, when I was doing those cold calls, at a dining room table, this was free having a client. I was like, how are we going to pay the bills? How are we going to pay rent? And she had a full-time role elsewhere and just like, I got you. And it just covered the bills for... It basically gave me the room to run with Excedr. So I got to give a shout out to my wife too for allowing me to have that space to do the thing. So significant others are... I think that's something, whether it be entrepreneurship or just career or just life in general, having that supportive partner and significant other is critical. 

Michael - 00:26:44: But the problem is now she watches it should be like. It's not. Never tell me that. 

Jon - 00:26:49: Yeah, he pulls up the receipts, pulls up the receipts, just like, Michael, that wasn't, that was not how it went down. Okay. Like, let me just like, in the comments, just like in the comments, your wife is just like, yeah, at sign Michael, not how it went down. Yeah. And if you could give any advice to your 21 year old self, what would it be? 

Michael - 00:27:10: I would say, you know, you know, keep an open mind, realize that the path that you're going down that you think you're going to go down, inevitably probably won't be the same, you know, 20 years down the line, but know that, you know, those decisions you make at those inflection points, irrespective of if you think they're the right decisions at the time, or maybe they're not, they're going to lead you down to an end goal that you might not necessarily think you've got at, but I think you will find because of all that information that you're gaining along the way and those decisions you made, you inevitably end up where you're supposed to be. And so, you know, just know that it might not happen immediately. You know, especially in today's society of immediate ground up vacation, it takes time, but it's worth the journey and just, you know, make sure that you follow it and continue to be true to yourself. 

Jon - 00:27:57: Absolutely. I like, I couldn't agree more. Like, I feel like every time I'm like, dang, I could have used that advice when I was 21. Certainly, I would have had a lot less existential dread. So Michael, thank you again. I had a blast, you know, the next time you're in the Bay Area. And when I'm done in your neck of the woods. Let's grab a beer. Maybe let's crack open a bottle of your wine. 

Michael - 00:28:21: 100%. 

Jon - 00:28:21: I'd love to see you then. And thanks again. 

Michael - 00:28:23: You got it, Jon. My pleasure. 

Outro - 00:28:27: That's all for this episode of The Biotech Startups Podcast. We hope you enjoyed our four-part series with Michael Paliotti. If you did, consider subscribing, leaving us a review, and sharing it with your friends. Be sure to tune in for our next series featuring Alfredo Andere, co-founder and CEO at LatchBio. LatchBio provides a modular and programmable data infrastructure to accelerate biopharma R&D, enabling scientists to analyze biological data faster, more efficiently, and at scale, all without touching code or cloud infrastructure. Before founding LatchBio, Alfredo studied electrical engineering and computer science at UC Berkeley, where he developed a deep interest in biology, data infrastructure, machine learning, developer tools, and the intersection of the four. Driven by the belief that software and data, are revolutionizing our understanding and interactions with biology, Alfredo is helping build tools that push the forefront of the biocomputing revolution. With a strong background in both software development and biology, Alfredo has helped LatchBio become a go-to platform for biotech companies that need to quickly and easily analyze complex biological data, making this a series that listeners won't want to miss. The Biotech Startups Podcast is produced by Excedr. Don't want to miss an episode? Search for The Biotech Startups Podcast wherever you get your podcasts and click subscribe. Excedr provides research labs with equipment leases on founder-friendly terms to support paths to exceptional outcomes. To learn more, visit our website, www.excedr.com. On behalf of the team here at Excedr, thanks for listening. The Biotech Startups Podcast provides general insights into the life science sector through the experiences of its guests. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from the podcast is at the user's own risk. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not the views of Excedr or sponsors. No reference to any product, service or company in the podcast is an endorsement by Excedr or its guests.